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Time to Take a Stand

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Time to Take a Stand

#901

Post by brightball »

Retra wrote: post #676
brightball wrote: post #189

Easiest way to take a stand is to be logically consistent about federal power - which means be against it always and not just when the opposition party is in charge. If 2/3 of the country can't agree that it needs to apply to the whole country then it's a state policy and not a federal one. Embrace the 10th amendment and make nullification a common act and not some rare that people scorn. It's the agree to disagree a…

You want to unite the country by making divide and conquer a stronger and more effective political strategy?

Nope. I want to reduce the things that can divide people. Otherwise feel free to have the same polarizing debate topics for the next 50 years.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#902

Post by anigbrowl »

leesalminen wrote: post #448
anigbrowl wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I favor outlawing things like St Patrick's day parades - do these people want to be Irish or American?

I think it's disingenuous to say there's no difference between celebrating your cultural origins and refusing to adopt American ideologies. I'm of Finnish descent. I have a Sisu bumper sticker and eat pulla. Do I refrain from making small talk with strangers at a bus stop? Of course not! Americans tend to be more open to strangers than Finns.

The problem is that it's so easy for bigots to conflate one with the other - if you see some lady in a headscarf she might just be carrying on the sartorial tradition she grew up with, but a bigoted person might say she's a harbinger of Islamic radicalism.

And there's no question that such radical Islamists exist, are generally strongly against the western-liberal-pluralist tradition, and that some of them are willing to commit heinous acts of violence. It would be a logical mistake to conclude that every Islamic person must necessarily be an extremist, but sadly it's not hard to think of politicians and pundits willing to mine that particular fallacy for all the political capital they can extract from it, and sadly there's a large portion of the population that is too dumb to spot the difference and who can easily be talked into scapegoating anyone who looks or acts differently, regardless of whether they actually pose any danger.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#903

Post by anigbrowl »

anigbrowl wrote: post #383
leesalminen wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There c…

That's why I favor outlawing things like St Patrick's day parades - do these people want to be Irish or American?

BTW for confused readers I'm actually Irish and have nothing against parades - this was a satirical argument.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#905

Post by anigbrowl »

grey-area wrote: post #418
anigbrowl wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now much of that is virtualized or amplified and concentrated in terrorist incidents - like many other things in our technological society. Why would you expect political activity to have stayed the same when everything else is changing? Just as we don't go downtown to do all our shopping any more, many conflicts are carried out in cyberspace rather than in the street. go look at the comments section on major new…

I'm not saying it has not errupted (it has) I'm saying violence and the glorification if it (as in people sharing the punch a Nazi video) is a dead end and will definitely strengthen trump support. The way to defeat him is to resist, massively, peacefully and persuasively - to persuade the nation that he is wrong, irrational and damaging everyone with insane policies like retroactive withdrawal of green card status.

I hope you're right, but I have to prepare for the very strong possibility that you're wrong and that he and his major cohort of supporters are not in fact amenable to reason and shared conceptions of fairness.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#906

Post by czep »

ebfd wrote: post #885
czep wrote: post #835

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Muslim immigrants as a group consume more in societal resources than they contribute in taxes or skilled labor." There are several issues with this type of justification. 1) We do not value human beings based on whether they are net positive or negative contributors to societal resources. 2) We do not value human beings based on whether they are net positive or negative contributors to societal resources. (This po…

>We do not value human beings based on whether they are net positive or negative contributors to societal resources. Of course we do. This is the stated, principle reason for immigration in almost all countries that allow it. The Scandinavian countries have found this not to be the case- statistically the successive generations are actually less prone to educational attainment and more prone to radicalization than th…

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free"

I think these words contradict your assertion and are more representative of the American approach to immigration.

But, to your point, it is an empirical question. We could actually explore this with Census data, using income as a proxy for societal contribution and controlling for year of immigration, religion, country of origin, and other demographic variables. My question for you is if the data turn out to be counter to your personal experience, and that Muslim immigrants do end up as net positive social contributors in subsequent generations, would it change your position on the recent Executive Order? If not then there must be some other explanation for your support of it.

As for me, if it weren't obvious from the two quotes above, my opposition to the EO is philosophical rather than economic. And even if the data show that immigrants are a net economic drain on society, I would still continue to welcome them with open arms. That's what I learned America is all about.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#907

Post by oh_sigh »

gizmo wrote: post #861
strken wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no, Trump didn't get elected because people desperate for a job were willing to overlook his hate. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/e... Check out the swings in the race section. If there hadn't been a massive swing towards him from blacks and hispanics, he might not have won.

Obama was an unusually charismatic candidate who got 93% of the Black vote in 2012 and 96% in 2008. There is no way Hillary or any other democratic candidate could match that. Hispanic turnout did turn out a bit below expectations, but not by much. Note that Hillary got completely crushed in the "White w/o college degree" category, which is a much larger demographic. And despite that Hillary still won the popular vot…

Interesting that you attribute Obama getting 93/96% of the black vote to his...charisma. Yes, I'm sure that was it.

> There is no way Hillary or any other democratic candidate could match that.

So, black people vote for a "charismatic" candidate, but when they are left with a mediocre candidate and a candidate that (as is argued) hates them, they decide "Hey, the guy that hates me is better than someone who isn't so charismatic"?

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#908

Post by mozumder »

jpttsn wrote: post #374
mozumder wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could actually do things to punish them, like boycott their states. Being punitive towards these criminals is perfectly valid. Liberals have the wealth in the country that the Trump voters want. You don't have to give it to them.

If liberals want to keep the wealth for themselves and not share it, are they still liberals? Sounds like a koan.

You're right. We liberals are supposed to give our money to criminals.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#909

Post by eli_gottlieb »

innocentoldguy wrote: post #396
anigbrowl wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've sen a lot of angst over the last week about people on the left expressing approval for 'punching nazis' following Richard Spencer suffering a whack on the ear during a TV interview. It's true, someone, probably form the left, carried out an act of physical violence while he was just standing there talking. But let's not forget that Spencer and various members of his social circle have - for years now - been expr…

I have questions about a few of your comments, if you don't mind indulging me: 1. Who is speaking for ethnic cleansing and genocide? Can you provide citations? I hear a lot of people talking out against illegal immigration, since it drives down wages and makes it harder for poor Americans to compete and make a living. I also hear politicking regarding banning muslims from entering the U.S., due to the fear of terrori…

>Who is speaking for ethnic cleansing and genocide? Can you provide citations?

Well, probably the guy saying "sieg heil" and giving a Nazi salute[1]. And he's giving a Nazi salute because he thinks the election winner is his guy.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6-bi3jlxk

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#910

Post by anigbrowl »

innocentoldguy wrote: post #772
anigbrowl wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to! 1. Here are some examples of people calling for ethnic cleansing/genocide or similarly oppressive policies. If you're basically liberal then these articles will be pretty offensive: http://www.amerika.org/politics/the-peat-party/ http://www.amerika.org/politics/why-we-need-three-castes/ http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/07/sexual-liberation-and-racial-suicide/ I don't want to get sidetracked into quantita…

1. Thanks for the citations, but who the hell are F. Roger Devlin and Brett Stevens, and why should anybody care? Their blogs seem to be on the fringe, and not something one would see in day-to-day politics. I'm not saying you don't have a point. Our society certainly has a few of these weird eggs, but there brand of "thinking" is generally viewed as abject ignorance by mainstream society, isn't it? 2. How would your…

A quick reply because I just got in.

1. The fact that you haven't heard of them is beside the point. They're influential within their circles and have been building their fan base for years. I would hope you have heard of Steve Bannon and Kellyanne Conway, and I have no hesitation in saying that their political starting point is only a very short hop away from the authors I've cited here.

2. To put it very simply, I'm saying that it might be OK to punch a nazi in response to the things they say or do which threaten the safety of others; they're saying it might be OK to kill or harass people because of their genetic characteristics or social affiliations, absent any demonstrable harm.

If I was saying it's OK to punch Richard Spencer because he's white, then you'd be right. But I have no interest in punching Richard Spencer for being white, or for thinking that white people are better, or for saying that he'd prefer to hang out only with other white people. When he starts saying it's OK to get rid of other people in order to create the white nationalist utopia he pines for, that's an incitement to violence and may justify a violent response.

Look, these people are not mainstream folk that are basically the same as everyone else but made a racist joke one time or something. Promoting violence against demographic groups is way outside the realm of acceptable discourse and is not something that we should be attempting to incorporate into it. You seem oblivious to the effect such behavior has on people who are members of the designated out groups.

I can't believe I even need to explain this to an intelligent adult person.

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