A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory • Hacker News Board

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#91

Post by mcv » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:02 AM UTC

piokoch wrote: post #77

When I see that discussion about basic income I am always wandering, who is going to pay for that? I assume the money will not be printed (this would not help, as inflation would make that income very small). So the country that applies such policy must have some way of finding money. Some countries have natural resources that they can sell, so the problem is solved. But how about the rest? I guess this will be finan…

> who is going to pay for that?

The same people who are paying for the other welfare, unemployment and disability payments, the lower tax brackets for lower incomes, etc. Those are all things that basic income could eventually replace.

It's not like there's free money coming out of nowhere, it's simply a smarter and more efficient way to distribute the money that's already there.

The big advantage of basic income, though, is that it rewards working more than what we currently have. It's currently possible for someone on welfare who gets a part-time minimum wage job, to end up worse off. With basic income, you always get ahead when you work more.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#92

Post by dagw » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:02 AM UTC

piokoch wrote: post #77

When I see that discussion about basic income I am always wandering, who is going to pay for that? I assume the money will not be printed (this would not help, as inflation would make that income very small). So the country that applies such policy must have some way of finding money. Some countries have natural resources that they can sell, so the problem is solved. But how about the rest? I guess this will be finan…

I am always wandering, who is going to pay for that?

Most countries contemplating this already spend a lot of money a whole host of welfare and various support and safety net systems, as well as the massive bureaucracy needed to administer these systems. By replacing the massive patchwork of existing systems with one simplified and unified system, you can save a lot of money through reduced bureaucracy and increased efficiency.

Basically this system won't be added to what is currently there but replacing an already expensive and highly inefficient system. So while it may end up being slightly more expensive it won't simply be a completely new cost added to the budget. There may even be secondary savings from things like reduced crime rates and increased health.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#93

Post by verinus » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:02 AM UTC

when it comes to utopian ideas i would prefer the right to work, to get a job to handing out cash to everybody.

my reason: handing out cash destroys the incentives to do better and improve...and not all necessary jobs are actual fun to do and others would surely completely vanish...

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#94

Post by belorn » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:03 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

With just basic income, how will the majority afford buying a TV or ice cream? Neither of those two products are basic necessities, and ice cream specifically is kind of expensive and would require a job in order to be afforded.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#95

Post by robmcm » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #64

Sir_Substance wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. I've always felt that this argument against basic minimum income said more about the arguer than society at large. In my experience, everyone has a personal project that gets sidelined for their work.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

The irony that you chose American Idol as the TV show is delightful. It's a prime example of people often from impoverished background trying to better them selves rather than sitting around doing nothing :)

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#96

Post by onion2k » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #73

Fuxy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would wager there will be people who will take advantage of the system and use it as a opportunity to not work and laze around all day however those people will be the one who are not particularly productive in their work anyway. They might find something else to do they might not but that's OK it is an acceptable loss. On the other end companies which used to take advantage of the job market and the fact that ever…

You don't mention the fact it's completely unworkable mathematically. In the UK I believe it'd cost £240 billion a year. Where the hell would anyone be able to find that money from? (Tackling tax avoidance from Starbucks isn't a credible answer). Just to put it in context, that's twice the entire NHS's budget, or 5 times our defence spending.

We wouldn't need money for most benefits any more (pensions, income support, etc) so that's about £120bn of the £240bn found immediately. You mention the NHS - we'd be able to spend a lot less on that if people didn't have poverty-induced health problems, so there's another £35bn (assuming a 30% reduction of the £110bn). It's not unreasonable to assume that the difference of £85bn would essentially pay for itself by increasing the tax revenue from people spending their basic income. over time the country's GDP and tax revenue would increase due to people being better off (they go hand-in-hand).

This could well be cost neutral for the UK.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#97

Post by anticon » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

merijnv wrote: post #89

anticon wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? Do you not think you're in a bubble of 1%ers? Most people aren't itching to start a company you know... Most want to watch American Idol and do nothing.

Who says it has to be a company? How about that guy that wants make music but doesn't have the time to practice due to work. The girl that wants to paint, but is to tired after work. Why does everything have to be about companies and money? Can't you really imagine any useful social, artistic, or other things these "dumb, lazy" people might want to invest their time into? How about just being a stay at home parent an…

So you want to spend £240 billion pounds, twice the NHS budget in the UK, on helping struggling artists?

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#98

Post by Fuxy » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

anticon wrote: post #52

onion2k wrote: post #33

One of the first pieces of advice I had when my company landed its investment was to pay ourselves a decent (not extravagant) wage so that my time went on worrying about the company rather than how I was going to afford to do things in my personal life. The same is true for employees - if they're paid a good living they will spend more time on thinking about problems in their job instead. If a government were to do t…

People starting companies are driven, determined people who want to create things. The vast majority of people are not. You're vastly over-estimating the general population. The majority are lazy, and if given money, will sit watching reality TV and stuffing their face with ice cream. (Step outside the startup bubble for a while). Most people are also selfish. The idea that they'll all start doing things to benefit o…

> Communism (Which is what this is), has failed. Why this generation seems determined to try it again is beyond me.

A bit of a stretch there and i should know i was born in a communist country. The reason Communism has failed is because of the lack of checks and balances on power compounded with corruption not because of concepts like this.

> This is about stealing money from the successful, and giving it to everyone, regardless of merit.

Be realistic most rich people are not rich because they are extraordinarily successful it's because they are born rich and there's entire companies with the sole goal of taking advantage of the system (in some cases doing morally wrong things that are technically legal) in order to make rich people get richer. Over the past 5 - 10 years the middle class has been getting poorer while the rich have been getting richer even with the economy collapsing. If you start off rich a lot of doors that are closed for regular people are wide open to you so you don't have to be successful just don't be a fool.

I see basic income as more of a equalizer so people who can't afford billion dollar companies and robotics to replace the workers get to eat as well.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#99

Post by mcv » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #90

piokoch wrote: post #77

When I see that discussion about basic income I am always wandering, who is going to pay for that? I assume the money will not be printed (this would not help, as inflation would make that income very small). So the country that applies such policy must have some way of finding money. Some countries have natural resources that they can sell, so the problem is solved. But how about the rest? I guess this will be finan…

Most civilized countries already have something very similar - social security. Everyone who works pays into the system that distributes that money among those who are unemployed. It's a type of insurance if you will. If I participate in the system, I can be reasonably sure that were I to lose my job, I wouldn't end up on the streets. A spectacular example of why this is a good thing is J.K Rowling who was able to wr…

> I've never understood the exact differences between basic income and social security,

The difference is that everybody gets basic income, and not just the unemployed. You don't get a sharp division between the employed and the unemployed, your welfare won't get cut when you start earning money. Work is always rewarded, and it's easier to get out of the poverty trap.

Re: A Dutch city is giving money away to test the basic income theory

#100

Post by verinus » Thu, Jul 02, 2015, 9:04 AM UTC

mcv wrote: post #91

piokoch wrote: post #77

When I see that discussion about basic income I am always wandering, who is going to pay for that? I assume the money will not be printed (this would not help, as inflation would make that income very small). So the country that applies such policy must have some way of finding money. Some countries have natural resources that they can sell, so the problem is solved. But how about the rest? I guess this will be finan…

> who is going to pay for that? The same people who are paying for the other welfare, unemployment and disability payments, the lower tax brackets for lower incomes, etc. Those are all things that basic income could eventually replace. It's not like there's free money coming out of nowhere, it's simply a smarter and more efficient way to distribute the money that's already there. The big advantage of basic income, th…

> It's not like there's free money coming out of nowhere, it's simply a smarter and more efficient way to distribute the money that's already there.

I highly doubt that.

In my opinion the current european social system destroys incentives to work and take responsibility for ones own live.