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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

harvardlawreview.org

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#91

Post by happyscrappy »

pjc50 wrote: post #54
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

I completely agree that we overcriminalize things and imprison far too many people in the U.S. I'm 100% on-board with this. It's our shame the way we treat non-violent offenders. A disgrace. But guys, nothing is ever 100% one way or the other, no matter how much you support it. So you have to look at differing points of view -- unless the objective is just to have a good rant. Here are the things that come to mind re…

The racism is not a red herring, it's the primary driver for the electorate demanding that the system be broken in the ways it is. It's used to argue that the victims of the system deserve it, and thereby to prevent change.

Pretending that racism is the main problem with inner city poor actually contributes to the problem. Not all poor in the city have the same outcome. Victimology is crippling. If nothing I do is my fault, because racism, then why would I not do whatever I feel like, consequences be damned? It is white people's fault, right?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#92

Post by happyscrappy »

CPLX wrote: post #88
eevilspock wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that we should end the drug war but you are oversimplifying.

Not really. Much like "end apartheid" or "US out of Vietnam" we are occasionally presented with government policies so clearly unethical or ineffective that they defy oversimplification. The drug war is one such obvious failure.

It is ending. Legalization of marijuana is the start.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#93

Post by Zigurd »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #58
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

The drug war is a direct consequence of the Warren Court reforms of the 1960s. Equal Protection and Disparate Impact made illegal many local laws and policing methods that had worked to maintain order. Prosecutors needed new tools to get criminals behind bars, hence the war on drugs.

"Maintain order?"

After the violence and racism, a big problem with police is the crappy solution rates to violent and serious property crimes. The Drug War just masks that lack of effectiveness.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#94

Post by Zigurd »

Bostonian wrote: post #60
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

Legalize which drugs? Only marijuana, or also crack, heroin, or LSD? If a certain drug causes brain damage and makes its users invalids, who will support them? I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

> I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

Actually, no. Soft drugs are not a problem. Opiate addiction isn't addressable with prisons. We know treatment is far more effective and less costly. Other drugs don't have a large social impact one way or another. And on top of all that, disemploying narcs will get a lot of thugs off the streets.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#95

Post by mineshaftgap »

Zigurd wrote: post #93
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is a direct consequence of the Warren Court reforms of the 1960s. Equal Protection and Disparate Impact made illegal many local laws and policing methods that had worked to maintain order. Prosecutors needed new tools to get criminals behind bars, hence the war on drugs.

"Maintain order?" After the violence and racism, a big problem with police is the crappy solution rates to violent and serious property crimes. The Drug War just masks that lack of effectiveness.

Is it your contention that the black cops in Baltimore are racist against black people?

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#96

Post by Zigurd »

Bostonian wrote: post #72
ChrisArgyle wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems as if you're saying violent crime is a function of race (crazy talk) instead of class status (arguable). Is it possible that, due to race-income inequalities in America, that black males are also more likely to have low/no income at the same "much higher rate"?

Empirically, crime rates do depend on race, not just class. It's not crazy to recognize reality.

Empirically, a biker war is treated vastly differently in the press and by the police than a protest against a police killing.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#97

Post by panglott »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #58
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

The drug war is a direct consequence of the Warren Court reforms of the 1960s. Equal Protection and Disparate Impact made illegal many local laws and policing methods that had worked to maintain order. Prosecutors needed new tools to get criminals behind bars, hence the war on drugs.

If the problem is racism and brutality in law enforcement, I don't think the right response would be "it was better before the 1960s". Law enforcement was racist before the 1960s because the law was explicitly racist then.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#98

Post by thucydides »

mellavora wrote: post #52
jacquesm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The murder rate is that high because of easy access to weapons that make murdering people relatively easy. Shooting someone is a lot easier than knifing someone, point-and-click.

Ummm, no. IF this was true, we would see a correlation between gun ownership (or access) and murder rates. If anything, the correlation is slightly negative, both in the US and globally. Where you DO see the correlation is inequality. In US states, using data from wikipedia, I find a 70% correlation between gini coefficients and homicide rates. The same is true globally.

There is a correlation between gun access and homicide rates. "Across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded."

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#99

Post by tomgallard »

mellavora wrote: post #52
jacquesm wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The murder rate is that high because of easy access to weapons that make murdering people relatively easy. Shooting someone is a lot easier than knifing someone, point-and-click.

Ummm, no. IF this was true, we would see a correlation between gun ownership (or access) and murder rates. If anything, the correlation is slightly negative, both in the US and globally. Where you DO see the correlation is inequality. In US states, using data from wikipedia, I find a 70% correlation between gini coefficients and homicide rates. The same is true globally.

Where do you get that information? This Harvard review - http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and... suggests a positive correlation between gun ownership and homicide, both nationally and internationally

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#100

Post by ams6110 »

thawkins wrote: post #79
Bostonian wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalize which drugs? Only marijuana, or also crack, heroin, or LSD? If a certain drug causes brain damage and makes its users invalids, who will support them? I think a cost-benefit analysis needs to be done for each drug.

If all drugs where legal then they would be made by commercial organisations, instead of illeagal non-accountable crime organisations. Some people will die, and then those commercial organisations will get thier asses handed to them in a law suit, the industry will find ways to make it safer and accountable for thier own proTection. Instead of the current situation, where very large numbers of people die, and the sup…

"Legalize it and tax it" has been the mantra, with the taxes earmarked to fund treatment. The latter will never happen, because government cannot help itself from spending whatever money it can on whatever it thinks will buy votes.

And there will still be a market for black market drugs. The legal, high-quality, taxed drugs will be more expensive than the underground variants. People will still make and sell homebrew meth, just as people still make and sell homebrew booze.

This isn't to say that I think we should keep things the way they are. There are many intoxicating substances that cause grievious harm to individuals, families, and society in general and I don't think that any of the illegal ones are worse than alcohol in that regard. And I don't think that getting high or being addicted is a criminal act (though it may lead to things that are criminal, such as stealing, driving under the influence, etc.)

I also think that intoxicating oneself is usually a bad idea, particularly if it's done to escape from or avoid some problem or life situation that needs to be dealt with and resolved. My worry is that legalization will be percieved as endorsement, absent any campaign to highlight the ethical, moral and personal responsibility expectations that people will need to live up to. And we seem as a society to have really gotten shy about teaching that certain behaviors and ways of living can be right or wrong, absolutely.

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