Join the Engineering Leisure Class • Hacker News Board

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#91

Post by rifung » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:51 PM UTC

ChrisLoer wrote: post #24

rifung wrote: post #16

This is actually exactly what I want to do, although I just started working so for obvious reasons it isn't a reality yet. How long does it take to save up enough money that you wouldn't need to work though? Also, it seems like eventually you'd run out of money unless you can just retire early, in which case, you have the issue of explaining why you've been out of work for so long and proving you still are up to the…

- On how long it takes to save up enough money that you don't need to work: depends on your assumptions, but yes it takes some years of work. There are lots of people who write on this, I especially like: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ - I don't personally have enough money to pay for my current living expenses for the 70-odd years I hope to remain alive. It was an important shift for me when I stopped thinking this…

Actually I have a question! If you aren't going to be able to permanently not have a job, don't you worry about your retirement or savings? After all, what you invest should compound so the earlier the better! Or so that's what I read..

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#92

Post by mndrix » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:51 PM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #6

How many kids do you have, Chris? :-)

I have 5 kids and do pretty much what the article describes. It can be done and it's grand :-)

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#93

Post by solveforall » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:53 PM UTC

I am currently doing this. I am much more productive compared to having a corporate job, but it is really hard on your family. There seems to be an arms race on doing everything for your kids these days. That means moving to a good school district (usually in very expensive places), paying for and driving to tons of activities, organic food, nice stuff. I have realized none of these things are possible while we are living off savings.

That said I feel much happier now being able to focus on a project that is my own creation. I was frequently angry everyday I had to split my time between paid work and my own project, leaving even less time for my family. (To be honest, in terms of total work, I got more done, but was miserable.) I frequently think about the consequences if my project ends up being a failure, but if I never tried to create something on my own, I'm pretty sure I would regret it on my deathbed.

My advice is to do this engineering leisure time before you have a family to support.

If anyone wants a preview of what I'm building, please check out https://solveforall.com/. It's a hackable search engine that can be enhanced with user-provided data, programs, and third party APIs. I'm currently working on making it much more customizable and private, so hopefully I'll be able to publicly announce it in a 2-3 more months.

One problem as mentioned in another thread is that it is very hard to get feedback while working alone. Everyone is so busy these days caught up in the rat race and their families, and I don't blame them. It would be nice to have some tech friends at work to bounce ideas off of. If anyone has any feedback for me, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#94

Post by zrail » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:54 PM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #82

zrail wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have to do something with my time, so I might as well get paid handsomely for it. There's actually an interesting component to that. Likely since you first started working you've never actually been in a situation where you don't need to sell your time in order to pay your expenses. I sure haven't. But I've read a lot of stories from people who are currently in that situation, and the feeling of having to do some…

> Likely since you first started working you've never actually been in a situation where you don't need to sell your time in order to pay your expenses. I sure haven't. Actually that's not true. When I was 28 years old, I quit my job, "retired" and traveled. It got old quick. I missed the challenges of solving engineering problems, the comradarie I have with coworkers, and the shared sense of purpose you get with wor…

Fair enough. I made an unfair generalization and I apologize. I'm glad you found something you enjoy doing :)

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#95

Post by rifung » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:55 PM UTC

marktangotango wrote: post #49

neilk wrote: post #8

I did this. I advise against this. I had money saved up, and for visa reasons had to spend a year outside the USA. Seemed like a perfect time to indulge in some risky ideas, especially those which were a little idealistic. It ended up being incredibly depressing and I got very little done. It's hard enough to build a product when you're in a startup or a smart team. In my opinion it's nearly impossible if you're goin…

I did this too, and I agree. IMO anything worth doing is non trivial. The project I took on had some really hard parts. Example: something akin to defining a relational schema for maintaining a model of c/c++ source code, before and after preprocessing (not exactly, but same idea minus the difficulty of parsing c++). This was one of about 5 'hard' problems. I got bogged down, and with no one to bounce ideas off, I be…

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the idea that "anything worth doing is nontrivial." This might certainly be the case for you, but I would love to just spend some time learning Haskell, writing an OS for fun, reading papers on Theoretical Computer Science, or trying to find security exploits.

I don't think these things are hard, at least they certainly aren't things I would doubt myself to be able to do. These are just things I'm sure I could do today if only I had more time, and at least to me these are definitely worth thing for one reason: they make me happy

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#96

Post by kelboy888 » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

RATHER CLUELESS ADVICE since context matters in functional life/work design as well as Functional Programming.

The Hacker mentality is complex due to artist/scientist/engineer contradictions. Engineer - slow, slow Haskell improvement Artist - take off time and just do it. Javascript hacker Scientist - Abstract everything. C code is a minor detail.

THE PROBLEM WITH THE INDUSTRY is similar to ARTIST. We really have little idea about REAL ENGINEERING teams here in the USA. from expericne over age 50.

If you are a genius on Javascript for Facebook; you are working 80 hours a week. Getting jobs done YESTERDAY and changing the timestamps is your specialty.

The Japanense Car which started as a mororized bicycle after World War II after the nuclear bombs were dropped uses PATIENCE and Kaizen constant improvement.

This is an important question because the VERY MODEL of Open Source; time patience and getting PAID...kickstarter? --- oh OpenBSD is going bankrupt yet one more time again becuase the security of the internet is a ECONOMIC PERVERSE INCENTIVE PROBLEM?

PS. as soon as I get to Senior VP of Microsoft, which will be any day soon, I expect a RENT INCREASE FOR ALL SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS working on open source.

The visa difficulties GRIND YOU DOWN ploys are losing effectiveness. Yet, Open SSL depends entirely upon some obscure DOCTORATE university student? and on 'volunteer efforts'

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#97

Post by zrail » Thu, May 07, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #86

zrail wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really what MMM espouses, from what I've been able to tell (I've actually spent the better part of the last month devouring his blog and the forums). MMM's point is that, if you live well within your means and can save 50% of your income (however you choose to define that, but most people do after-tax), you can "retire" after a short number of years. "Retirement" is very much however you want to define it,…

It's a false economy. You don't have to wait until you're financially independent to find meaningful work that you like doing. I still remember the day ERE Jacob decided to go back to work. He spent all this time justifying his decision. It wasn't the decision he had to justify, it was the previous five years or so he spent not doing work he loved and not making buttloads of money doing it. The argument against work…

I don't think this is the kind of dichotomy you're making it out to be. Of course not all work is soul-sucking and meaningless. If you find something fulfilling and enjoyable, great! That's awesome! There's all kinds of options in life, and the great thing is that you don't have to pick just one. MMM seems to be about opening up more options by allowing you to not have to consider revenue in your decision making process.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#98

Post by NathanKP » Thu, May 07, 2015, 11:02 PM UTC

kelboy888 wrote: post #96

RATHER CLUELESS ADVICE since context matters in functional life/work design as well as Functional Programming. The Hacker mentality is complex due to artist/scientist/engineer contradictions. Engineer - slow, slow Haskell improvement Artist - take off time and just do it. Javascript hacker Scientist - Abstract everything. C code is a minor detail. THE PROBLEM WITH THE INDUSTRY is similar to ARTIST. We really have lit…

Was this comment written by a Markov Chain?

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#99

Post by twic » Thu, May 07, 2015, 11:09 PM UTC

angrybits wrote: post #41

desbo wrote: post #35

The author obviously doesn't live in London. I could never afford to pay rent without a job. The article is idealistic bullshit.

So relocate to bumfuck, england and do your work there. I don't think the idea is to ditch your job and still pay $3000 a month for an apartment.

What work? There are no jobs in Bumfuck, and not enough companies that hire remote workers for this to scale.

As i understand it, the situation in the US is that there is Silicon Valley, where the salaries are high and the rents higher, and then half a dozen other places where there are significant concentrations of software jobs, and more reasonable living costs.

This is not really the case in the UK. There's London, there's a ring of big corporate offices just outside London (Guildford, Cheshunt, places like that), and that's more or less it. You pretty much need to live in London or its commuter belt to work non-remotely in software.

Re: Join the Engineering Leisure Class

#100

Post by dionidium » Thu, May 07, 2015, 11:21 PM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #83

dionidium wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happening is that upper-middle class families really do run out of money after saving for college, sending the kids to private school, both driving two new cars, and so on. They think of those things as basics and forget that those basics are unattainable to most.

Note that "saving for college" means "saving to pay for their kid's tuition AND ALSO pay for the financial that goes to a family earning $50k/yr". And two cars (not necessarily new) because both parents are driving to work. And property tax that pays for public school for kids of less real-estate-wealthy folks Also marginal tax rate (Federal, state, social security) of ~30-40% on the difference in income.

You can't list those first three things and then also -in the last one. The last one encompasses the first three.