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Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

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Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#91

Post by PebblesHD »

rayiner wrote: post #14

The term "digital native" irks me for another reason, which is the presumption that younger people have a better understanding of technology than older people. Kids these days understand the Facebook and the Twitter, but they're deeply insulated from how computers actually work. One thing my wife pointed out to me is that her teenaged siblings have a lot more trouble finding things on Google than she does, because th…

Whilst I agree that hiring someone based entirely on age is not the best way to get a great team, and that not all older people are worse than all young people when dealing with technology, your generalisation that 'Kids these days understand the Facebook and the Twitter, but they're deeply insulated from how computers actually work.' is flawed and almost entirely incorrect. Kids these days (in general) are no less informed about technology than the kids of 30 years ago. In general I'd say kids these days know many times more than kids of that period simply because they've been exposed to it for longer, and then the young people who are actually interested in computers know many times more than that.

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#92

Post by yellowapple »

PebblesHD wrote: post #91
rayiner wrote: post #14

The term "digital native" irks me for another reason, which is the presumption that younger people have a better understanding of technology than older people. Kids these days understand the Facebook and the Twitter, but they're deeply insulated from how computers actually work. One thing my wife pointed out to me is that her teenaged siblings have a lot more trouble finding things on Google than she does, because th…

Whilst I agree that hiring someone based entirely on age is not the best way to get a great team, and that not all older people are worse than all young people when dealing with technology, your generalisation that 'Kids these days understand the Facebook and the Twitter, but they're deeply insulated from how computers actually work.' is flawed and almost entirely incorrect. Kids these days (in general) are no less i…

That's all fine and dandy in theory, but from personal experience, I've found that it hasn't made much of a difference, probably for the same reason that the proliferation of automobiles has yet to result in the world's youth being proficient in automotive repair, or that the proliferation of the written word has yet to result in the world's youth being composed of poets and novelists.

The reason (in my observation, at least) is that being familiar with using something doesn't immediately translate to being familiar with creating something. Now, for a job where the using is important, a "digital native" might actually stand a chance (assuming that the something being used is similar enough to what he/she has used previously that patterns can be matched and the candidate's brain can perceive the thing being used as "intuitive" or "user-friendly"), but the article seems to imply the creation side of things (by referencing "media giants" and startups), where the skills don't completely cross over.

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#93

Post by yellowapple »

devonkim wrote: post #90
raverbashing wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the visitor counter and the "men working" gif

Optimized for IE used to be what the cool kids did because it supported iframes before Netscape and all of a sudden it wasn't a big deal to use frames in that way. It took a while before div based layouts actually were easy to get working in most browsers to the point where most people stopped using Photoshop and cutting everything into borderless tables.

I'm not afraid to admit that I still do table-centric HTML design on occasion (disclaimer: for specific, usually non-public, uses); it's really not all that much worse semantically than the current trend of "oh I'll assign a grid-three-seventeenths-or-whatever-the-fuck CSS class to this div in WangularStrap.js", considering that in both cases you're embedding formatting information in the data being presented (and therefore totally missing the point of "semantic" web programming).

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#94

Post by CountSessine »

funkyy wrote: post #82
CountSessine wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it OK for employers to discriminate based on criteria that the applicant can't reasonably change through education or training, like race or gender? Is that the same as discriminating based on age? Is 'digital native' HR-code for discriminating based on age?

Define discriminate. I think you are using this word to cover up word "decide". It is his business. If he wants to hire only blond woman in their 20s - cool. But if he decides to hire based on skills rather than racial/age quotas or some ridiculous decisions - also cool. You cant change that, thats freedom of PRIVATE business.

It is his business

That's not the way commerce and business law work. Private business needs to follow the law, as much as anyone else.

If he wants to hire only blond woman in their 20s - cool

Cool, perhaps - in a frat-boy/brogrammer sort of way. But also quite likely illegal in the United States under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Title VII prohibits employment discrimination based on race or sex, and I doubt that being a 'fuckable blonde' would qualify as a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification exception under the statute.

But if he decides to hire based on skills rather than racial/age quotas or some ridiculous decisions - also cool.

That's all anyone could ask of him.

You cant change that, thats freedom of PRIVATE business

PRIVATE business is specifically bound by title VII. Please hire a qualified HR representative when you start your business and save yourself a whole lot of grief.

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#95

Post by greenyoda »

dragonwriter wrote: post #86
funkyy wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define discriminate. I think you are using this word to cover up word "decide". It is his business. If he wants to hire only blond woman in their 20s - cool. But if he decides to hire based on skills rather than racial/age quotas or some ridiculous decisions - also cool. You cant change that, thats freedom of PRIVATE business.

> Define discriminate. I think you are using this word to cover up word "decide". Its not covering up -- discriminate and decide actually mean the same thing. > It is his business. If he wants to hire only blond woman in their 20s - cool. Age and gender discrimination are both (with some caveats) illegal in many jurisdictions, so, while you may find it "cool", it isn't necessarily legal. > You cant change that, thats…

"Which lots of jurisdictions have."

Such as the U.S., which has laws protecting workers over the age of 40 from age discrimination:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employme...

Other U.S. laws protect against gender, race, religious, etc. discrimination.

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#96

Post by CountSessine »

mod wrote: post #89
CountSessine wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Digital native" doesn't seem to violate any discrimination laws. It certainly doesn't equate to "black" or "female." What does "digital native" mean in the context of hiring? Does it mean age discrimination? I'm guessing that there are a lot of companies that are using it as a sort of 'job marketing', and that the intention is to specifically appeal to younger candidates. If so, then, in intention at least, it would…

In my mind it's a skillset more than anything else. My mind doesn't necessarily equate to everyone else's mind. You're taking the parent at his worst, when HN makes a concerted effort to take the best possible meaning. You actually can systematically discriminate against capable candidates and virtually every hiring process is designed to do that in some form. Really, I think you're just trolling here.

You're taking the parent at his worst, when HN makes a concerted effort to take the best possible meaning

Perhaps, but in the meantime the parent has elaborated on his position and has confirmed that he really does seem to believe that private business is exempt from employment discrimination law. Or perhaps he doesn't understand that there actually is such a thing as employment discrimination law. Or I don't know. I don't know what's going on in his mind, actually. All I have is what he's written here - I'm forced to give him the benefit of judging his words without prejudice - I don't know him and I've never heard of him.

You actually can systematically discriminate against capable candidates and virtually every hiring process is designed to do that in some form

Well this is ethics vs morality, isn't it? Yes, Daisy, you really can break the law and get away with it most of the time. But that doesn't make it right, and I don't like seeing or hearing anyone patting each other on the back about it or crowing about how PRIVATE business is privileged enough to be able to hire without considering employment discrimination laws.

Really, I think you're just trolling here

I don't think that I'm trolling - I'm merely trying to provoke thought in the Socratic tradition. How am I trolling?

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#97

Post by raverbashing »

scrollaway wrote: post #60
raverbashing wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh you don't get social media? You're using one right now.

There's a massive difference between topic-centered, article-oriented forums and social-oriented "life walls", in which people are drawn to share their personal life and basically have an "online life hub". One is centered around the topic, the other is centered around the person.

Reddit is topic oriented and nonetheless is social media. Because the curation of topics is done by the users (same thing here, with some content created by the users themselves)

Pinterest is about curation of content and it is social media as well

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#98

Post by scrollaway »

raverbashing wrote: post #97
scrollaway wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a massive difference between topic-centered, article-oriented forums and social-oriented "life walls", in which people are drawn to share their personal life and basically have an "online life hub". One is centered around the topic, the other is centered around the person.

Reddit is topic oriented and nonetheless is social media. Because the curation of topics is done by the users (same thing here, with some content created by the users themselves) Pinterest is about curation of content and it is social media as well

As I said, it's about the difference between "topic-oriented" and "person-oriented".

Pinterest has a very different demographic which is more likely why GGP hadn't heard of it, but I would put it in the same bucket as Reddit/HN. Facebook, Twitter etc however are person-oriented.

The only thing all these have in common is user-generated content. But at that point you can call anything with user-generated content social media. Forums? Sure. Newspapers with curated user-submitted articles? Why not.

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#99

Post by petercooper »

ukigumo wrote: post #5
petercooper wrote: post #3

I didn't use that specific term because it sounds as stupid as "rockstar" or "ninja", but when I was hiring recently I only used Facebook ads (which you could target to specific genders or ages, if you wanted - I only targeted by location) and stressed that the job(s) required someone comfortable with the Internet, social media, and Internet culture (which, indeed, they do). I only got applications from people in the…

Out of curiosity, if you had received an application from a 40 something who has been "digital" since before the internet was deemed a human right, would you have felt comfortable hiring him?

Yes. The added experience would have been a plus.

Re: Is It OK for Employers to Seek Out ‘Digital Natives’?

#100

Post by petercooper »

notacoward wrote: post #15
petercooper wrote: post #3

I didn't use that specific term because it sounds as stupid as "rockstar" or "ninja", but when I was hiring recently I only used Facebook ads (which you could target to specific genders or ages, if you wanted - I only targeted by location) and stressed that the job(s) required someone comfortable with the Internet, social media, and Internet culture (which, indeed, they do). I only got applications from people in the…

I'm sure you feel good about the people you hired, but how do you know that there wasn't someone even better who didn't apply because of the narrow targeting of your ad? If somebody posted their job ad only in the AARP newsletter, would you feel that it had been made available to twenty-somethings? After all, they could read it.

I actually believe I choose the most widely disseminated approach. My Facebook ad was targeted to within 20 miles of my town and reached around 10,000 unique people according to Facebook. Only 18,000 people live in my town and it's a very rural area. Even our local paper's job ads page gets fewer readers, I bet.

Two of the people I hired actually didn't even see the ad themselves but had it shared to them by other people, so if older people were looking for a job in my field, I believe they would have had a good chance to see it too.

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