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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#91
post #62

I'm seriously surprised at how many people here are fans of Yudkowsky, given his lack of any real productive output beyond thought experiments and fanfiction, the distinctly weird stuff he judges as right by taking his philosophy to the extremes (e.g. "it's better for one person to be tortured for fifty years than for an extremely large number of people to each get a speck of dust in their eye"), and the way he treat…

I'm seriously unsurprised to find the token why-does-anyone-like-Yudkowsky-he-doesn't-have-a-PhD-and-hasn't-even-saved-the-world-yet criticism in a thread about his Harry Potter fan fiction.

He's a great writer, and that should be more than enough for the purposes of recommending a thing he wrote.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#93
post #91
post #62

I'm seriously surprised at how many people here are fans of Yudkowsky, given his lack of any real productive output beyond thought experiments and fanfiction, the distinctly weird stuff he judges as right by taking his philosophy to the extremes (e.g. "it's better for one person to be tortured for fifty years than for an extremely large number of people to each get a speck of dust in their eye"), and the way he treat…

I'm seriously unsurprised to find the token why-does-anyone-like-Yudkowsky-he-doesn't-have-a-PhD-and-hasn't-even-saved-the-world-yet criticism in a thread about his Harry Potter fan fiction. He's a great writer, and that should be more than enough for the purposes of recommending a thing he wrote.

I left this out from the parent post because it's a subjective judgment, but I absolutely disagree that he's a "great" writer, or even anything really more than "serviceable" at best.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#94

I read a bunch of chapters a few years ago and thought it was remarkably horrid.

I thought I was missing something because I only hear great things about it but I couldn't stand it. I tried twice to read it but could never understand the appeal. It's nice to know I'm not alone.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#95
post #93
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seriously unsurprised to find the token why-does-anyone-like-Yudkowsky-he-doesn't-have-a-PhD-and-hasn't-even-saved-the-world-yet criticism in a thread about his Harry Potter fan fiction. He's a great writer, and that should be more than enough for the purposes of recommending a thing he wrote.

I left this out from the parent post because it's a subjective judgment, but I absolutely disagree that he's a "great" writer, or even anything really more than "serviceable" at best.

Can you recommend some alternative writers that fill the role better?

I think his writing has two particular things going for it:

- He explains concepts clearly with understandable examples.

- He presents concepts that aren't (or weren't) well known outside of academia to a wider audience.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#96
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" calls into question the very idea of there being a "scientific truth" that is independent of historical assumptions. OK, let's do this. We have a scientific theory. From it, we derive some engineering discipline, which uses the theory to, essentially, make predictions about what will happen if we do this to that , with the property that, if the predictions hol…

I think this is a very naive refutation of what the point was about Kuhn. First off, the notion that engineering "validates" science. What do you mean by validate? Do you mean successful engineering informed by a set of scientific principles, somehow, in a scientifically rigorous way, renders those principles true? As in, end of story true? Because most of mechanical engineering is done on the assumption that force e…

> I think this is a very naive refutation of what the point was about Kuhn.

I don't deny that it's naive.

> First off, the notion that engineering "validates" science. What do you mean by validate? Do you mean successful engineering informed by a set of scientific principles, somehow, in a scientifically rigorous way, renders those principles true? As in, end of story true?

Nothing is end-of-story true except in mathematics, where we have access to absolute truth by virtue of first having accepted an axiom system as absolutely true within a context and then having accepted some logical rules as being capable of turning one absolute truth into another absolute truth within the same context.

Mathematics is absolute, but it's only valid within the abstract context of that branch of mathematics.

Physics, for example, is only conditionally true, contingent on us finding evidence which refutes a given theory, but it is applicable to the real world.

So engineering provides evidence that the theories we have can predict the behavior of the Universe at least in the context where they're being applied. A theory is only validated in the world in which it is tested. Granted. However, to the extent it is tested and validated, that validation should be accepted as worthwhile, as opposed to being written off as something culturally contingent.

> Because most of mechanical engineering is done on the assumption that force equals mass times acceleration. The industrial revolution yielded countless engineering marvels on the back of Newton--cars, trains, breathtaking buildings and bridges. But the theory isn't "true," because Albert Einstein did some thinking and realized that all of the physics change as you go really fast--something "engineering" missed, despite the fact that the stuff "worked."

Right, and Einstein's predictions about how the acceleration of a massive particle to near light speed would affect its measurement of time were not validated by engineering but experimentation. And it's also true that bridge engineering validates Newton as much as it does Einstein and Dirac, for example, because it operates in a world where all three theories are "valid" in the sense of "if you use them to help make your bridge, they will not cause it to fall down", and it validates whatever ideas the ancient Roman bridge-builders had, at least if the bridge is of a style the Romans made. I grant all of that.

Philosophically, then, we're back to Popper, in that negative results push science forwards, whereas positive results only make us more sure that the ground we're standing on is solid. We shouldn't ignore positive results, though, because the bridge will still stand even after the next paradigm shift; we should further accept all theories as provisionally correct. That much seems fairly mainstream, philosophically speaking.

However, we are moving forwards. We are able to explain more observations than we have been able to in the past. We are not just moving in circles, with each paradigm shift undoing all of our work and sending us back to square one. We learn to make better and better bridges, to bring this back to engineering.

> But somehow it feels wrong to say that Newton was wrong, right? Because in his world, with the kind of thinking and set of scientific instruments available to him, and the battled hardened inverse square phenomena [1] that could be painstakingly measured and applied in engineering, it was infallible. It was true. But only in historical context.

Newton's laws were always provisional. We now know them to be incomplete, but still useful for human-scale construction, on Earth or in space or on other bodies entirely. They've been subsumed into more modern theories as a special case; they're the equations you observe when you set the paramters to be similar to what humans will experience first-hand. And, as you said, they couldn't explain Mercury, which modern theories can, so they were incomplete even before we had GPS satellites to falsify their predictions. (I mean, they were observably incomplete. Our observation doesn't dictate what reality is; any solipsists can kindly imagine that I don't exist and refrain from communicating with me.)

So engineering does validate theories, but validation isn't enough to winnow theories until you come up with some test some of them fail. That's just Popperian philosophy, though, isn't it? That's just the philosophy of science that all the cool kids are so done with right now, right? My point is that we shouldn't imagine that the validation is worthless, or imagine that it can be undone, because any new theory will have to explain precisely the same behavior as the old one, paradigm shift or no.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#97
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" calls into question the very idea of there being a "scientific truth" that is independent of historical assumptions. OK, let's do this. We have a scientific theory. From it, we derive some engineering discipline, which uses the theory to, essentially, make predictions about what will happen if we do this to that , with the property that, if the predictions hol…

Kuhn never denies that there are facts about the universe that we can observe. And I agree with you about this general class of example: no number of scientific discoveries or paradigm shifts will ever make the photoelectric effect cease occurring. Kuhn's argument is that science occasionally undergoes what he calls "paradigm shifts" -- a low-level shift in assumptions about a certain realm of scientific thought that…

> He doesn't say that there aren't facts about the universe, but rather, that the scientific approach to understanding the universe is caught up in a paradigmatic frame which makes it impossible to derive a simple, objective algorithm/process for scientific discovery.

I don't see how he gets from A to B. How is the fact that we obviously can only build models based on the past - since the future is not accessible to us - prove that it is impossible to refine models to asymptotically approach a hypothetical fundamental truth?

We may not have a formalized algorithm. But whatever is running on human brains has worked so far.

If I boil this down it sounds to me like he's claiming that a system that takes its past states as one of its inputs (observation of the universe being another) is incapable of refining scientific theories? Which, given the fact that's exactly how scientific discovery has been done so far, seems false.

So what am I missing here?

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#98
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask what about "Less Wrong-style rationality" you disagree with?

This is the kind of thing which could very easily turn into a flame war, and is much further off-topic. I'm not interested in that kind of argument right now, so all I will say in this thread is this: My personal experience with Less Wrong-style rationalism, to simplify the situation aggressively, is that it has a core of good, useful tools (Bayesian reasoning, strict positivism, utilitarianism) that I have no proble…

And yet no one has really made an convincing argument of why the conclusions of utilitarianism contradict the axioms of utilitarianism. And no one seems to offer the rather simple solution that utility is non-linear (so dust in ones eye is really a quite small fraction as bad as a century of torture), and people who mock Eliezer's utilitarianism hypocritically do so on sweatshops built&recycled computers, clothes, and food.

The strongest argument against rationalist utilitarianism seems to be that people don't like the cognitive dissonance it imposes on hypocrites.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment could be more valuable if it included your reasoning or suggestions for improvement.

I did enjoy HPMOR, but there's many reasons why people wouldn't. Take one in common with the Harry Potter franchise — consider that "J.K." Rowling's publisher asked her to hide her gender. [1] Obviously there's many absurdities in such a system. Unicorns and horcruxes are perfectly fine — but god forbid you have a lead character who's (say) a black girl. Whites and males can't be expected to empathize with her! I can…

It's kind of funny, by now most literate folks must assume that an author who concels their name must be a woman.

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality finished today

#100
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kuhn never denies that there are facts about the universe that we can observe. And I agree with you about this general class of example: no number of scientific discoveries or paradigm shifts will ever make the photoelectric effect cease occurring. Kuhn's argument is that science occasionally undergoes what he calls "paradigm shifts" -- a low-level shift in assumptions about a certain realm of scientific thought that…

> He doesn't say that there aren't facts about the universe, but rather, that the scientific approach to understanding the universe is caught up in a paradigmatic frame which makes it impossible to derive a simple, objective algorithm/process for scientific discovery. I don't see how he gets from A to B. How is the fact that we obviously can only build models based on the past - since the future is not accessible to…

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