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Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

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Re: Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

#91
post #86

Dear 144 Universities, I believe I am not alone in holding the opinion that public funds should not result in private gains. The Bayh-Dole Act of 1980 screwed the taxpaying public for your benefit. The public is not wrong to ask that it be reversed or corrected. If you wish to enjoy the benefits of private research, stop asking for the grant of public research funding. If you wish to enjoy the benefits of public rese…

> I believe I am not alone in holding the opinion that public funds should not result in private gains How the heck could that ever work? When a commercial vehicle uses a public road, public funds are resulting in private gains. When a city transit system buys a bus from a for-profit bus maker, public funds result in private gains. Most of what public funds are spent on results in private gain. Did you phrase things…

[deleted]

Re: Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

#92
post #86

Dear 144 Universities, I believe I am not alone in holding the opinion that public funds should not result in private gains. The Bayh-Dole Act of 1980 screwed the taxpaying public for your benefit. The public is not wrong to ask that it be reversed or corrected. If you wish to enjoy the benefits of private research, stop asking for the grant of public research funding. If you wish to enjoy the benefits of public rese…

> I believe I am not alone in holding the opinion that public funds should not result in private gains How the heck could that ever work? When a commercial vehicle uses a public road, public funds are resulting in private gains. When a city transit system buys a bus from a for-profit bus maker, public funds result in private gains. Most of what public funds are spent on results in private gain. Did you phrase things…

You are forgetting that private entities are also members of the public. Just because one private entity may benefit does not mean others cannot. When the commercial vehicle uses the public road, it does not exclude anyone else from using it, except to the extent that it causes traffic congestion. When the public buys a bus, it has the bus. The company it buys from could have sold that bus to anyone else who wanted one.

In this case, the private patent-holders take the benefit and exclude the rest of the public from it.

If you need it to be more clear, public funds should not be used in a manner that exclusively benefits only a few enumerable private parties. It doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easily, but there it is.

Re: Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your entire first paragraph is straw men. It doesn't matter how much any individual pays, it doesn't matter what any individual's sentiment is. If Google pays a researcher to do some research, they own it, regardless of how much any individual shareholder paid of that amount or what any individual's sentiment about that research is. Those things are irrelevant. It's not as easy as "publicly funded research should be…

> If Google pays a researcher to do some research, they own it, regardless of how much any individual shareholder paid of that amount... Do you assume you are Google rather than the shareholder that you get any say in what happens with that research? > Here's a recent paper on patents and innovation... I would take with a jarful of salt anything Boldrin and Levine say. This is a rehash of their "Against Intellectual…

Meh, I still think your first paragraph is straw men. I do have some voice in the matter, as I do with the government. That I have very little voice is not really the point here.

Thanks for the links. A couple of new papers to read there.

FWIW, my assertion that Watt held up development of the high-pressure steam engine and thus the locomotive came from Mokyr, not from Boldrin and Levine. I hold Mokyr in pretty high esteem, so I trust his interpretation, but I have not read the primary sources myself. It's interesting that the paper you mention has had almost no cites...even though it mentions that Mokyr et al commented on it. If they believed it threatened their views, you would think they would respond.

I tried to be evenhanded with the last paper by cutting to a neutral quote. I agree with your interpretation, but what that says to me is that patents are, on average, neither good nor bad for a startup. The plethora of papers arguing one way or the other, almost all with some flawed methodology (c.f. "do patents cause more patents to be filed?" or "why doesn't stronger patent law cause more patents to be filed?", etc.) says to me that there is not yet an answer to this question. This is a problem because patent law consumes a ton of resources, so there should be a rather more definitive answer about its efficacy. (It also seems eminently answerable, albeit with a lot more work defining and collecting metrics; I think, given that academics generally despise "business" questions, that simply counting patents is about all the work they are willing to do. That last paper I cited is the most actual roll-up-your-sleeves work I have seen addressing the question.)

My slant comes from 30+ years in the computer industry, 20 of it backing startups. My general rule of thumb is that if a founder's pitch puts a ton of emphasis on their patents, I pass. Patents have simply proved an ineffective way to defend a new business, in my experience.

Of course, if I were in a discovery-based business, like pharma, rather than an engineering-based business, I would have seen a different sequence of events and so have a different opinion.

Re: Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

#94

I'd like to say... I just attended a talk where one of the professors is using NSF funding to conduct research, then patent all of their work. Companies are then forced to pay the university based research group for use of their products and for further development. Personally, I cannot decide whether or not this is for the best or not. The research group can bring in more money to produce quality work. On the other…

I'm a University professor who does much work funded by the NSF (millions of dollars), whose university (Univ of Washington) is on that list. My tech transfer office tried hard to make me keep some of my software work closed source and succeeded for years (see http://sagemath.blogspot.com/2014/08/what-is-sagemathcloud-l... ). In December I realized to my surprise that some of my NSF grants that funded my work had an…

Thanks for bringing this up, Bill.

Regarding the larger issue, SI2 does not require open source, but it suggests that it is a good idea.

Re: Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Google pays a researcher to do some research, they own it, regardless of how much any individual shareholder paid of that amount... Do you assume you are Google rather than the shareholder that you get any say in what happens with that research? > Here's a recent paper on patents and innovation... I would take with a jarful of salt anything Boldrin and Levine say. This is a rehash of their "Against Intellectual…

Meh, I still think your first paragraph is straw men. I do have some voice in the matter, as I do with the government. That I have very little voice is not really the point here. Thanks for the links. A couple of new papers to read there. FWIW, my assertion that Watt held up development of the high-pressure steam engine and thus the locomotive came from Mokyr, not from Boldrin and Levine. I hold Mokyr in pretty high…

My point was that you do have a little say, but so do millions of others, and a lot of these are conflicting, which makes it difficult to settle on a policy.

> It's interesting that the paper you mention has had almost no cites

I assume you mean the "Strong Steam" paper? I guess it is not as highly cited since most simply don't question the myth and cite those that propagate the myth instead. However, the paper is well-researched and compelling. I also found it a surprisingly good read, fascinating for the historical perspective it offers of technology and industry at the time.

> If they believed it threatened their views, you would think they would respond.

I'm not sure about Mokyr, but Boldrin and Levine did respond, and as the second paper shows, they responded by simply changing their falsehoods.

I mostly agree with your views on the papers in this field. However, I don't think the question is easily answerable because from most of the papers I've read, comparing the benefits and costs of patents is like comparing apples and oranges.

> Patents have simply proved an ineffective way to defend a new business, in my experience.

I actually agree. My experience comes from a startup that was ripped off by the big guys and prevailed with patents, but only after it almost died and most of the original team was laid off. As such the patents could not defend the business, and were only good for some after-the-fact remediation.

To me, this makes it seem like patent law needs to be strengthened to avoid such cases, but more and more "patent reform" is all about making it easier for the big guys to defend themselves.

Re: Universities warn Congress that patent reform would harm US innovation

#96
post #45

Just to play devils advocate: One can be pretty innovative if he has to develop CPU without using XOR operation. Are there technologies developed solely as alternative to patent? I can think of PNG x GIF, OGG x MP3, Display Port X DVI... I would say that patent creates sort of monopol, which forces others to go with open solutions. Similar situation was when Windows caused Linux to emerge. Without patents we would be…

Actually, innovation through forced workarounds of patents has long been one of the reasons for patent systems. Though not originally stated explicitly, many jurists and economists over time have espoused this line of thought in support for patents.

Can you give any pointers? It's plausible to claim patents do little harm because they can be worked around but saying they bring net benefit because the must be worked around feels bizarre.
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