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I don’t know what to do, you guys

fredrikdeboer.com

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Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#91

Post by electronvolt »

javajosh wrote: post #48
stolio wrote: post #12

I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc. And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot,…

I feel ya. I'm a staunch gay rights advocate, even fought prop 8, but I still thought Eich was treated unfairly. A man shouldn't lose his job because of his political views, just like he shouldn't lose it for being, say, transgendered. Needless to say, this is a nuanced position, and some people simply don't have the capacity for nuance, sadly.

Question: if it came out that Eich had donated to, say, the KKK, would you feel the same way?

I have mixed feelings over the way he was treated, but your argument actually seems the opposite of nuanced: the blanket claim that someone should never be fired for their political views (particularly, from a public position where their politics could have an effect on the company they represent both on internal culture and on externalities like boycotts), no matter how repugnant their politics are, seems pretty reductive.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#92

Post by throwaway38364 »

swatow wrote: post #82
throwaway38364 wrote: post #62

I find it strange that there's a concern with political correctness on HN when the majority of "political" stories gets flagged to death. I guess this political story happens to fit the narrative. Talk about political correctness.

To the person who doesn't share the progressive political viewpoint, the flood of stories about diversity in tech, always written from a pro diversity viewpoint, is itself a form of political activism to be resisted.

The idea that your behavior is excusable because you're resisting something is a cornerstone of populism and the problem with political correctness in the first place.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#93

Post by potatolicious »

mathattack wrote: post #53

What is intersectional politics?

That privilege (and the lack thereof) is a highly complex system that is more than the sum of its parts, and therefore cannot be easily separated and evaluated in isolation.

For example, while women are disadvantaged in our society in many ways, the ways in which this disadvantage works is remarkably different for black women and white women - or women from higher-class backgrounds vs. lower-class backgrounds.

Ditto, while "white men" are commonly perceived to be privileged, this privilege works differently (and to varying degrees) depending on if you're wealthy or poor, urban or suburban, jock or nerd, etc.

And the effect in totality is not the simple sum of all the properties of the individual. Therefore, attempts to separate the discussion of privilege and disadvantage into discrete "women/men" "rich/poor" "white/black" "straight/gay" variables is doomed to failure - the way an individual is treated in society is the complex intersection of many attributes of who they are.

A straight black woman faces different discrimination than a gay white woman, who faces different discrimination than a straight white poor woman - and the dynamics of the privileges they hold and lack cannot be simply isolated like an algebra equation.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#94

Post by xtrumanx »

indlebe wrote: post #23
stolio wrote: post #12

I spent about ten years being an "ally" to feminism, to the LGBT community, to minorities, etc. And then my views drifted ever so slightly from the tried and true party lines. One day I said I thought it was wrong that Brandon Eich was forced out of Mozilla, I said I thought it was wrong the way he was treated. Immediately the decade spent arguing for gay rights and marriage equality disappeared and I became a bigot,…

Who are you sharing your views with that you are experiencing so much judgement, etc? Are these comments on your blog, or real life friends, or both? >politics are still left of centre The whole left-right thing is really a false dichotomy. It sounds to me like you associated/associate with extremists of political correctness. I hold some very progressive ideologies, but I have never faced ridicule if I don't "tow th…

How about right here at HN? Earlier this week someone commented on using shame as a tool for "positive change".

I once wrote a comment on a thread here on HN but after considering past reactions of HN of similar comments, I didn't bother submitting the comment and closed the tab instead.

I don't necessarily care about karma but I use it as a way to figure out what kind of stuff the community wants to hears from me. When I get downvoted I make a mental note to keep such opinions to myself next time. I rather have some of my comments be visible than have them greyed out or dead.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#96

Post by rjbwork »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #37
vacri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth remembering that one advantage right-side politics have is that they are passionate for the status quo. Left-side politics are passionate for change. And it's when people are passionate that they get into disagreement; it's much easier for lefties to disagree about what kind of change they want, than for righties to disagree about how they want things to stay the same...

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

In the US, the terms basically mean Repub/Dems, not what the right and left actually are in most of the rest of the sane world.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#97

Post by omegaham »

deciplex wrote: post #31
vacri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth remembering that one advantage right-side politics have is that they are passionate for the status quo. Left-side politics are passionate for change. And it's when people are passionate that they get into disagreement; it's much easier for lefties to disagree about what kind of change they want, than for righties to disagree about how they want things to stay the same...

I wonder if this is a reaction to Republican party politics of the last 20 years or so? They seem to speak with a single voice, even if that voice is usually saying stupid, hateful, regressive things. That they march in such lockstep is probably their greatest asset as a party, and I really don't know if it's something to be emulated or not (leaning toward 'not', though).

I would actually argue that the Left is far more ideologically consistent. The Right is badly split between the fiscal and the social conservatives; half of them couldn't care less about abortion and gay rights, and half of them couldn't care less about the economy. In contrast, while they disagree about how far left to go, the Left is mostly pretty consistent on the fundamentals of their platform.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#98

Post by titanomachy »

sparkzilla wrote: post #74
Animats wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Academic politics is so vicious because the stakes are so low." - Henry Kissinger. He'd both been on the Harvard faculty and was Secretary of State, so he knew. The real trouble with the political correctness thing about sex is that it's a distraction from the real political issues - money, and who gets how much. Most of what government does and can do is about money. The US right has its own problems with sex, but…

>Occupy leaves behind one lasting achievement - the identification of "the 1%" as a problem. As long as the 1% doesn't include Steve Jobs.

I don't think the message is that those 1% of people are themselves a problem, more that it's a problem that wealth is distributed as inequitably as it is.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#99

Post by xtrumanx »

Udo wrote: post #63

Although a lot of people obviously disagree, I believe this should not be on HN. Both the examples raised in the article and the subject matter itself is bringing out the worst in the members of this community, for no good reason. Blanket statements all around, personal attacks, strawmen galore, just-so anecdotes as moral fables, and for what? The kind of petty political polemics inevitably attracted by the topic do…

Let's face it; the submissions guidelines are a joke due to the first line:

> On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.

No matter the topic, anyone can bring up that line and effectively ends any question that the topic is fit for HN by claiming that they find it interesting.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#100

Post by noodly »

Don't say anything - they already chose what's best for them.

They left one of the bullshits camp and hopefully they will be more careful next time before they will try to associate with another.

People learn on mistakes.

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