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How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

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Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#91

Post by refurb »

digi_owl wrote: post #33
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

And this is why i find the whole economics idea, that multiple entities doing their thing for individual profit will produce general social improvements, questionable at best.

The current system isn't perfect but capitalism has lifted billions out of poverty over the last century.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#93

Post by icebraining »

digi_owl wrote: post #33
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

And this is why i find the whole economics idea, that multiple entities doing their thing for individual profit will produce general social improvements, questionable at best.

And this is why i find the whole economics idea, that multiple entities doing their thing for individual profit will produce general social improvements, questionable at best.

Remember that the economic theory isn't a morality code; it doesn't say what the individual should do. It says that, people being what they are - that is, not always the kind and generous beings we wish they were -, how can we set up things so that general welfare is increased.

And in this case, the part of the economic theory that you're referring to that would lead to vaccination is not the profit seeking but property rights: in theory, if you go around infecting people when you could have vaccinated yourself, they should be able to get compensation for it.

Will that solve the problem in this case? Probably not, but then again, which system has a better one? Forced vaccinations don't sound better to me.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#94

Post by 13years »

Oletros wrote: post #49
agentsmith wrote: post #37

The media is filtering out the logic from this debate. I would have hoped HN would be more informed. Its well established that no vaccine has an effect that lasts longer than seven years. This is the reason for booster shots. Every vaccine researcher and pharma company will tell you this. The reason we immunize children is because their hygiene practices are poorer than most adults and they are a marginalized class.…

> For a recent example look at Ebola. Many people simply can't get it because they are too healthy. I can't start to grasp how wrong is this claim

Although that claim is a bit simplistic, it is not without claim.

You might start here http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67...

If humans or any living thing didn't have the ability to fight off disease life wouldn't exist. The degree to which anything can fight off an illness is a combination of genetics and environment which includes its overall health status.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#95

Post by voidlogic »

stelonix wrote: post #17
skynetv2 wrote: post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

While I agree I'd do anything to help my child, I also realize it's not up to me or most importantly, the government to dictate how other parents should raise their children. The right to raise your child the way you see fit, obviously without any major abuse is an universal right any parent has and it's above any social construct. Abuse, in this context, should be real abuse, which means physical or psychological vi…

In most democratic societies liberties are only extended so far as they don't constrain other people's core liberties.

Someone choosing to not allow their child to receive low risk preventative treatment stops being a right when it increases another child likelihood of dying.

Why, declining a low risk treatment society has agreed in essential is less of a core right then the other child's right to live.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#96

Post by es09 »

shas3 wrote: post #79
skynetv2 wrote: post #3

it breaks my heart to see so many "adults" making "informed decisions" about NOT vaccinating their children. They should really go live in undeveloped countries where vaccines are scarce and unavailable to experience first hand what lack of vaccinations actually means, what the implications are for the general population. I grew up, fortunately with out any problems, seeing so many kids suffering from polio, handicap…

I grew up in India. It wasn't uncommon at all to see people of my parents' generation with pockmarks from Small Pox or handicaps (and stories of deaths) from polio. Their generation saw first hand the horrors of these diseases and recognized the importance of vaccines. They still speak fondly of how lucky it is that vaccines were available by the time their kids (my generation) were born. So developing countries are…

I grew up in India as well and I can second this comment. There is something to be said for seeing first hand the effects of a disease.

Speaking from personal experience, my brother developed a bad reaction to a polio vaccine and developed a mild form of polio that eventually went after a year of struggle. That didn't stop my parents from further vaccinations. It was understood that vaccines have side effects but getting the disease would have been far worse.

I worry we need to see an actual measles death here in the US before people start seeing the actual benefit of vaccines in the cost/benefit calculation.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#97

Post by mikeash »

chatwinra wrote: post #85
mikeash wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a cite for that "seven years" figure? According to this web page, lots of vaccines last more than 7 years, with some lasting for life: http://www.traveldoctor.co.nz/vaccinations.aspx Of those that don't last for life, adults do get booster shots. I don't know why you think they don't. I get a flu shot every year and I get boosters for other diseases every so often when I have a physical. I don't immunize my child…

It's great to see people asking for citations. I just wish that sort of mentality existed in the everyday world. At the moment newspaper articles, tv news reports, etc can all get away with discussing science (and science-related topics) with citing ANYTHING. I'm not saying it'll solve the vaccine crisis, but in the long run, I think the key is getting citations for statements of facts into public discourse. (then yo…

I don't know, reflexively asking for a cite for a claim you disagree with is really easy, and just one small step above saying "no it's not." It can be good, but asking for a cite is often a more friendly way to say "you're full of it."

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#98

Post by 13years »

digi_owl wrote: post #33
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

And this is why i find the whole economics idea, that multiple entities doing their thing for individual profit will produce general social improvements, questionable at best.

Yet one of the issues presented from the anti-vax argument is that there are safety issues with vaccines. The companies producing them are protected by law from the consumer if there are any damages.

In a free market, the manufactures would have to improve the product to the degree that the consumers are convinced it is safe, and if injury is proven in court they would be held liable. Therefore there would be a profit incentive to fix the very issue at the center of the anti-vax argument.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#99

Post by saalweachter »

HillRat wrote: post #86
derekp7 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What it boils down to, is whether or not taking advantage of a technology puts them under the influence of those outside their community. For example, if they use electricity then they have to be involved with the affairs of the town, and not self-reliant. But they can choose to use a diesel engine to power equipment for their farms, as they have the ability to make their own bio-fuel. And they use modern refrigerati…

Very good explanation! I'll also add that some Amish (and somewhat more Mennonite) communities actually OK laptops and cellphones, while desktop computers and landlines are eschewed. (Or, to use a somewhat older example, some communities accepted phones that were located outside the house, leading to phones mounted on poles placed suspiciously close to the kitchen window.)

I'm betting the desktop/laptop thing is a good example. Desktops require power grids, which the Amish prefer not to be tied to. Laptops are easier to run independently of the rest of the work since you can charge them when you can in a variety of ways.

Likewise, flying on airplanes or taking the occasional train on a one-off trip isn't really that big of a problem, either: you aren't tying yourself to the rest of the world. If you go on a mission this year via airplane, it doesn't compel to do the same thing next year. On the other hand, buying into automobile culture to commute to work ties you pretty hard to everything.

Re: How an Amish missionary caused 2014's massive measles outbreak

#100

Post by TheHypnotist »

danielweber wrote: post #51
robert_tweed wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And it should explain herd immunity very clearly, a bit like this demo: http://op12no2.me/toys/herd/ People need to stop believing that it's a personal choice for them alone. That is no more true than if they were to go around blowing cigarette smoke into the faces of other people. It's anti-social behaviour and even worse, the consequences are potentially deadly.

Reading the article, the community backed off from vaccination following two kids having a bad reaction to an MMR vaccine. It wasn't "personal choice" or "religious exception." They had a bad experience and were scared away.

I got pretty sick after getting MMR vax. But I think that's normal when you get dead/dying diseases injected into your body. Also, on the bright side, I haven't gotten Measles, Mumps, OR Rubella yet.
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