Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99 • Hacker News Board

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#91

Post by mikeash » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:05 AM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #75

mikeash wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the statistics at hand, but I'd say it's likely more. The remarkable safety of airliners doesn't extend to smaller aircraft.

It actually does, the problem is that the same restrictions do not apply. A very large amount of private aircraft related accidents happen because of extreme conditions in which a commercial airliner would have not been flying under in any case. Privately owned aircraft also tend to be much less well maintained and their pilots have considerably fewer flight hours than big or small commercial aircraft. This is when "…

First of all, you can't just mention a bunch of ways in which smaller aircraft are unsafe and then declare that they somehow don't count. If pilot experience and currency is a big factor for why small planes are more dangerous (and it most certainly is), then it's just a factor for why small planes are more dangerous, not some way that small planes aren't more dangerous.

For this specific service, there are a couple of things that do make it inherently less safe than being in a brand new 747-800. Specifically, there's much less redundancy and fewer emergency options for when something goes wrong. If you lose an engine on a 747 then you just keep going. If you lose an engine, or rather the engine, on a Manhattan-JFK helicopter flight then you're going down extremely fast and you have few or no good options for where to put the thing. It's similar for suddenly encountering a flock of geese (the odds of a safe landing in the river with a 100% survival rate are considerably lower with a helicopter than with an A320), fuel exhaustion, or a sudden pilot heart attack (I'm guessing there aren't two pilots in these things).

Mid-air collisions are another potential danger. I'm guessing that a helicopter like this doesn't have a TCAS system, and not all of the airspace in question requires ATC clearance. Nine people died in a helicopter/airplane collision in NYC in 2009, and it could happen again.

I don't mean to paint an excessively bleak picture here. I'd have no qualms about taking a flight on one of these helicopters, aside from the price. But at the same time we shouldn't kid ourselves by thinking that it's safer than taking a car, let alone as safe as an airliner.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#92

Post by Alex3917 » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:06 AM UTC

ovb wrote: post #41

nostromo wrote: post #21

A service like this existed until a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Helicopter It took just a few minutes to get to EWR or JFK and cost $159. The biggest selling point was not only the short commute, but that you went through security at the helipad very quickly, rather than waiting at the airport. I believe they were a victim of the financial crisis and died around that time.

And before US Helicopter, there was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Airways New York Airways had one notable accident: http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/16/may-16-1977-hel...

The NYC helicopters in general have a terrible track record. There are constantly articles about them crashing into the rivers, into buildings, into other helicopters or planes, etc. Someone else in the thread posted an article about how the overall helicopter fatality rate compares with the car fatality rate, and while it's hard to say for certain, it doesn't look promising.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#93

Post by mtourne » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:06 AM UTC

soneil wrote: post #85

lmm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not where I live they don't. Is this a US thing?

I'm in Europe, and every single ISP in my area advertises like this. Every single price on their website is the new-customer 3-month promo rate.

I hate when people do this, also I think it doesn't work on anyone from my generation. That was part of my reason for choosing Sonic.net.

Which country do you live in ? I know nobody does ISP introductory prices in France.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#94

Post by cobblestone » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:06 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #34

Animats wrote: post #7

Footnote on ad: "Promotion rate flights are for first time flyers only and limted to a single use. Other terms and conditions may apply." HeliNY, for which they are a reseller, charges $925 for that trip as a charter. Aircraft capacity is 5 (maybe 6). So the regular price, assuming they make you wait for a full helicopter, is probably about $200.

Seems like blatant false advertising to have "$99" in big text and nothing but an asterisk to indicate that this is a rate you're allowed to have exactly once ever.

Apps don't even exist. Right now they're just collecting email addresses, gaining buzz, and I highly doubt they have any capacity to actually fulfill any of it.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#95

Post by mikeash » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:08 AM UTC

larrys wrote: post #80

TeMPOraL wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough to sue them for misleading advertising or something like that? It needs to be done, just to make a point.

I would imagine that the chance of getting sued is quite small. What individual would sue and what harm would they claim? Government FTC most likely would not care and if they did all they would have to do is change the picture. Likewise if there was an accident someone would have to say they relied on that information and was mislead. Unlikely (especially in the case of death how do you prove that?). Plus it is comm…

A significant chunk of US airline flights are operated by a company other than the one whose logo is on the airliner. It mostly applies to the smaller regional "feeder" names, like United Express (actually operated by Cape Air, CommutAir, ExpressJet, and a bunch of others), and American Eagle (operated by AVAir, Chaparral Airlines, Command Airways, and more).

I have no idea if Gotham plans to actually operate that way, but I'd be shocked if there were actually a legal problem if they did.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#96

Post by ben1040 » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:08 AM UTC

bertil wrote: post #82

larrys wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly I've seen a few services like this advertised exactly the same way (WSJ ads some run by former industry execs). Interesting thought that the picture of the heli contradicts that (says "Gotham Air" on the side). That's no small point actually. Gives someone who doesn't read the fine print the idea that they do operate the aircraft. I understand why they do that but it is a bit deceptive.

Uber also suggests driver feature their logo on the windshield of one of their category. Can’t remember which.

I've taken UberX vehicles that had a logo card taped to the windshield.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#97

Post by sgustard » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:09 AM UTC

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #25

The Gotham Air app will revolutionize the way you travel. Our iOS and Android based technology will allow you to enjoy crowd sourced helicopter flights when you want. Call your friends or meet some new ones on board. A beautiful new Bell 407 helicopter is just minutes away! Is it really hard to describe services in plain English? BTW, it's a good idea. Lagos used to have one before.

I find the phrase "crowd sourced helicopter flights" strangely terrifying.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#98

Post by dankohn1 » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #21

A service like this existed until a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Helicopter It took just a few minutes to get to EWR or JFK and cost $159. The biggest selling point was not only the short commute, but that you went through security at the helipad very quickly, rather than waiting at the airport. I believe they were a victim of the financial crisis and died around that time.

I did the $159 a few years ago before they shut down. My flight out of JFK was delayed by 2 hours, making the expense seem kind of ridiculous. Also, my flight was in a different terminal, meaning I had to leave and then re-enter security, which also kills the time advantage.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#99

Post by orbitur » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

dankohn1 wrote: post #98

nostromo wrote: post #21

A service like this existed until a few years ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Helicopter It took just a few minutes to get to EWR or JFK and cost $159. The biggest selling point was not only the short commute, but that you went through security at the helipad very quickly, rather than waiting at the airport. I believe they were a victim of the financial crisis and died around that time.

I did the $159 a few years ago before they shut down. My flight out of JFK was delayed by 2 hours, making the expense seem kind of ridiculous. Also, my flight was in a different terminal, meaning I had to leave and then re-enter security, which also kills the time advantage.

I don't know. I think I'd pay $160 to not sit in traffic for 3 hours, just to wait in an airport/go through security for another 2. That means extra time to get things done before you fly out.

Re: Gotham Air: Manhattan to JFK in 6 minutes for $99

#100

Post by mikeash » Fri, Jan 23, 2015, 1:15 AM UTC

chc wrote: post #89

mikeash wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got an example? I've seen plenty where the introductory rate is bigger, but the fact that it's an introductory rate is still made adequately clear, as is the true price. I could be misremembering or oblivious, though. I'd happily call others blatant false advertising as well if so.

It's really hard to find the non -introductory rate for a cable company in the US (any I've seen, at least).

I checked out the site for Cox, my local cable company. For TV, they advertise $49.99, and above that in smaller letters it says "prices per month for 3 months, starting at." If I click "Find Out More" below the price, which it seems is required to get any details or sign up, it then gives me several plans whose prices are "for 12 months with 2-year service agreement." If I keep poking around I can finally view the terms of the offer which says "Bundle rate increases $15/month for months 13-24."

Certainly not great. But at least it's reasonably clear that the number they give you isn't the full story, even if finding the real one takes a bit of legwork. Not trying to defend them, but this helicopter thingy is a bit worse.