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The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

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Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#91

Post by octix »

pjmlp wrote: post #70
collyw wrote: post #9

I have seen many people try and shoehorn various problems into MongoDB, when in most cases a relational database would have been better suited. I have yet to see a real use case for Mongo unless you are building a Facebook clone. Can someone suggest when it is actually useful over a properly tuned relational database? I guess I kind of reached the irrelevance stage just thinking about the sort of problems it would be…

> Can someone suggest when it is actually useful over a properly tuned relational database? Maybe when developers don't want to bother to learn SQL? On my CS degree we got proper introduction to SQL and the relational algebra behind it, so for me it is just a tool, not a scary monster. I really love the data integrity options I have at my disposal with relational databases. So for me this all NoSQL fad never made muc…

It's not about Facebook clone, they still use MySQL for some functionality (i believe), but not as RDBMS but more like NoSQL...

NoSQL means model your data in a different way, the way you'll be using it. For some it makes more sense, for some may not.

For example, compare implementation of a tagging system in mongo and any other RDBMS, which one is easier?

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#92

Post by filearts »

phpnode wrote: post #24
collyw wrote: post #9

I have seen many people try and shoehorn various problems into MongoDB, when in most cases a relational database would have been better suited. I have yet to see a real use case for Mongo unless you are building a Facebook clone. Can someone suggest when it is actually useful over a properly tuned relational database? I guess I kind of reached the irrelevance stage just thinking about the sort of problems it would be…

> I have yet to see a real use case for Mongo unless you are building a Facebook clone People seem to keep making the mistake of building a social network in mongo. It's entirely unsuitable for that. Source: I've helped 3 companies move their social networks from MongoDB to OrientDB when they figured out that MongoDB prevents them from shipping features that users expect, e.g. friend-of-a-friend style queries

What has your experience been like in deploying and working with OrientDB? This is a bit of really cool tech that I've been keeping an eye on for some time but haven't gotten around to really playing with it.

What server language were you using and where were you deploying?

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#93

Post by pjmlp »

octix wrote: post #91
pjmlp wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone suggest when it is actually useful over a properly tuned relational database? Maybe when developers don't want to bother to learn SQL? On my CS degree we got proper introduction to SQL and the relational algebra behind it, so for me it is just a tool, not a scary monster. I really love the data integrity options I have at my disposal with relational databases. So for me this all NoSQL fad never made muc…

It's not about Facebook clone, they still use MySQL for some functionality (i believe), but not as RDBMS but more like NoSQL... NoSQL means model your data in a different way, the way you'll be using it. For some it makes more sense, for some may not. For example, compare implementation of a tagging system in mongo and any other RDBMS, which one is easier?

> For example, compare implementation of a tagging system in mongo and any other RDBMS, which one is easier?

As I said, I never bothered with NoSQL so I cannot properly answer it.

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#94

Post by snird »

octix wrote: post #90

It may be hype, but when MongoDB was released, what other RDBMS was offering the same functionality? I see Posgresql + JSON mentioned, but when was JSON support added? I personally like MongoDB for: - flexible schema (less migration pain) - easy tags implementation - product attributes (list of name-value pairs) - GridFS - store binary files - nested documents for analytics (ex: a record for each day with a nested do…

Everything you said is true, but I don't think the argument here is about the past, but rather about the future.

MongoDB was great and innovative compared to other solutions when it started, but now, it's dragged behind while other solutions are much better.

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#96

Post by phpnode »

filearts wrote: post #92
phpnode wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have yet to see a real use case for Mongo unless you are building a Facebook clone People seem to keep making the mistake of building a social network in mongo. It's entirely unsuitable for that. Source: I've helped 3 companies move their social networks from MongoDB to OrientDB when they figured out that MongoDB prevents them from shipping features that users expect, e.g. friend-of-a-friend style queries

What has your experience been like in deploying and working with OrientDB? This is a bit of really cool tech that I've been keeping an eye on for some time but haven't gotten around to really playing with it. What server language were you using and where were you deploying?

OrientDB is very cool software, I find it pretty hard to go back to traditional databases now that I've seen how powerful graphs are, but the cool thing about it is that it's still a document store at heart, so you get all the same advantages of mongo, but with the graph awesomeness on top. It's a fantastic tool, but there are a few quirks that can catch beginners out and the documentation is not stellar. It also requires some configuration tweaking to get the best performance for your workload.

I've been using node.js (I develop the official driver - https://github.com/codemix/oriento), but there's pretty good libraries emerging for other languages too. Most people I've worked with are deploying to AWS, one company was running on the bare metal.

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#97

Post by filearts »

phpnode wrote: post #96
filearts wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has your experience been like in deploying and working with OrientDB? This is a bit of really cool tech that I've been keeping an eye on for some time but haven't gotten around to really playing with it. What server language were you using and where were you deploying?

OrientDB is very cool software, I find it pretty hard to go back to traditional databases now that I've seen how powerful graphs are, but the cool thing about it is that it's still a document store at heart, so you get all the same advantages of mongo, but with the graph awesomeness on top. It's a fantastic tool, but there are a few quirks that can catch beginners out and the documentation is not stellar . It also re…

I actually JUST discovered oriento and was absolutely delighted to see a bluebird promise-based api. API looks fantastic. Thanks a ton for creating the lib.

Do you have any advise for someone thinking of deploying on GCE?

My use-case would be for an online code editor (Plunker, if you've heard of it) with users, projects, packages, collections (of projects), comments and project versions (stored as content-addressable git-compatible objects).

I'm also interested in understanding if there is any built-in compression mechanism because I will be storing a large volume of very similar text files. Any hints?

Have you used the lucene indexes much? If so, can you do any of the crazy faceting delivered by ElasticSearch?

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#98

Post by collyw »

annnnd wrote: post #29
collyw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Postgres and MySQL just work as far as I am concerned.

I never said or implied that they don't. What is your point?

OK, I took your last line to imply that somehow Mongo just works in a way that others don't.

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#99

Post by jbergens »

ddebernardy wrote: post #58
nextw33k wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can someone suggest when it is actually useful over a properly tuned relational database? In your own question you kind of hint at it. You need a tuned database. NoSQL lowers the barrier to entry for fast persistent data storage with replication. NoSQL doesn't replace SQL databases, it's looking to optimise a use case where transactions are not required. Personally I use Mongo a bit like a cache, sitting in front o…

> NoSQL doesn't replace SQL databases, it's looking to optimise a use case where transactions are not required. I'd be curious to know in what contexts anyone would not want transactions. I readily see the case for memcached or equivalent when it comes to caching -- it is very valid, and indeed useful, when slightly outdated data is perfectly acceptable. I can even picture how you might be using MongoDB to do the sam…

Document databases normally has atomic updates of a document. This may contain many parts and would require transactions in a relational db. Meaning you kind of get some transactions automatically. Other things are not possible to make transactions around and then you must try to create the app to handle the problems. And some document databases can actually use transactions, like FoundationDb.

Re: The growing irrelevance of MongoDB

#100

Post by jbergens »

snird wrote: post #94
octix wrote: post #90

It may be hype, but when MongoDB was released, what other RDBMS was offering the same functionality? I see Posgresql + JSON mentioned, but when was JSON support added? I personally like MongoDB for: - flexible schema (less migration pain) - easy tags implementation - product attributes (list of name-value pairs) - GridFS - store binary files - nested documents for analytics (ex: a record for each day with a nested do…

Everything you said is true, but I don't think the argument here is about the past, but rather about the future. MongoDB was great and innovative compared to other solutions when it started, but now, it's dragged behind while other solutions are much better.

Then we should probably compare other NOSQL solutions to relational databases. Like CouchDb, CouchBase, FoundationDb, Neo4J, etc.
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