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How Paul Graham Is Wrong

ma.tt

91–100 of 206 posts

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#91

If my business pays for a great programmer, I want that programmer's knowledge, experience and attitude to diffuse to the rest of my team (... not that I have a business, just sayin' :-). Much harder to do this if that great programmer isn't in the office.

None of those things actually require physical proximity. It might take a little more effort to get right, but there are a lot of great programmers out there that don't want to relocate (or be tied to an office) and some of the might be worth it.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#92
post #38

>Use WordPress and P2, use Slack, use G+ Hangouts, use Skype, use any of the amazing technology that allows us to collaborate as effectively online as previous generations of company did offline. I've been a 100% remote worker for 5+ years but I think we have to be honest here. All those teleconferencing/videoconferencing/virtualwhiteboards/etc are not as effective as everyone sharing the same physical workspace. Yes…

Having experienced different setups, it seems that collaboration is OK if everyone is at the same place. It's also OK is everyone is remote. Where it gets troublesome is when part of the team is collocated and part is remote. What you get is two unequal classes of employees which leads to all kinds of problems.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#93
Let us assume a company where everyone works from home and meetings are held in Starbucks or airport lounges. Such a company would save many thousands of dollars per employee per year, maybe tens of thousands. No real estate, no receptionist, no cleaners, no equipment to buy or IT dept to support it...

Such a company would probably pay less than market rates, due to the "perk" of allowing remote work? But where's that money going? If you are an engineer considering remote working, make sure YOU get a slice of the pie.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#94
post #69

Programmers, if they have a choice, like remote or at least some remote. Managers + VCs, if they have a choice, prefer all in the office so they can keep power but this actually makes them less competitive and more susceptible to physical disruptions: moving an office, an employee moving, time, office politics, commute, distractions, over meeting and more. The PG essay on this was glaringly overlooking that you can b…

I'd add that the PG post is a symptom of a disease. A disease that that is brewing in the echo-chambers of SV. Note also the recent post where PG claims that "mean people fail". The more the VC community gets un-hinged from the reality the quicker the inflation of the bubble and the crazier the assertions. Time to get out of the bubble.

What disease is that, (very) specifically? I'm having a hard time nailing down what you mean, and how you arrived at that conclusion, but think it would be worthwhile to understand more.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#95
I've worked both onsite and remote as a software dev / data engineer. I started out onsite. There are major disadvantages to remote work:

* Amount you learn from the office community is orders of magnitude lower than onsite. If you're good at pushing yourself to learn new things, that can help, but your knowledge will almost certainly end up less diversified living remotely. You're just not exposed to the company's tech challenges as deeply, yet that's usually one of the main reasons for working at the company.

* You don't necessarily get top projects, but rather perhaps good projects that fit remote work. Taking a remote role almost certainly hurts your career if you want to compete with traditionally onsite roles.

* You likely don't get to participate in hiring or shaping the culture in a substantial way.

* You'll have a much harder time building the network needed to get access to key resources (e.g. data, people, etc).

* Your company better have a nice VPN or you're going to be doing a lot of systems-oriented stuff for yourself. It can be fun but can slow you down.

* You're probably more likely to be laid off.

The company I worked for started offering remote much more frequently due to recruiting and retention problems. I don't think the net result had a very positive impact on the Eng org. In particular, a lot of junior people were allowed to go remote for retention reasons but they didn't end up doing much in that role-- they would have been much better off just joining a different company (either local to them or one with a much much stronger remote culture).

Agree with the poster that PG's essay has some holes; seems orders of magnitude less polished than his older essays.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#96
I was part of a virtual team many years ago, before all these tools existed. I was the only one on the West Coast, not in a position to meet others face to face -- at least not more than once, for a conference I attended -- and was the newest to the group, younger than most of the others, etc. There were several dimensions in which I was an outlier for the group. Ultimately, it ended on something of a sour note. I was basically accused of being a "traitor" for doing my actual job. I and the person at the top had very different ideas about how things should be handled and my domain expertise was not really respected. (After my departure, the project that had benefited the most from my input kind of died back down again.)

I spend a lot of my time online and I have taken a lot of online college classes. When I had a job at BigCo, I got in the habit of emailing my questions to my immediate boss, whose role included answering technical questions. For various reasons, I was unable to master the art of catching her at her desk or whatever. Emailing worked better for me.

I and some of my teammates got transferred to a new team that initially did not have someone in the technical role she filled. Until the new team got their own technical lead, we were all still assigned to our old lead. Other teammates of mine who were used to having face-time with our lead were incredibly frustrated. My transition was quite smooth. I rarely needed face-time with her to get good results. I just continued emailing my questions as usual. I also was not particularly "likable." I was quite ill at the time and not at my smoothest socially. I also just come from a more formal cultural background than the people I was surrounded by. I was not interested in being too schmoozy. In the short run, this seemed to hurt me a bit. But once I got transferred to a new team, it was to my benefit: Getting my questions answered had been a purely professional function, not something rooted in being friendly or whatever.

So I think there are good points on both sides of this argument. I see several really good comments here falling on either side. And I think the disconnect probably has to do with some social thing that can be fostered remotely but many people aren't good at it. As we develop more online/virtual/long distance cultural practices, I think this will become less of a divide for some people.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#97
post #38

>Use WordPress and P2, use Slack, use G+ Hangouts, use Skype, use any of the amazing technology that allows us to collaborate as effectively online as previous generations of company did offline. I've been a 100% remote worker for 5+ years but I think we have to be honest here. All those teleconferencing/videoconferencing/virtualwhiteboards/etc are not as effective as everyone sharing the same physical workspace. Yes…

I think you might be falling into the trap of overt generalization.

I agree that remote removes critical bandwidth for cross team communications.

On the other hand, lots of programming projects are parallizable to n crafty individuals who need colocate only once in a while to " totally sync their mindstate" and can communicate effectively enough in the mean time using other ways without loss of critical bandwidth if the need for that bandwidth is not needed.

Not all teams need the same kind of cross individual bandwidth. Of course loss of colocation leads to loss of serendiptuous talks to create novel insights but if the insividuals working together were located far apart in the first place then they might not be working together at all if not remote.

Personal anecdote to give a practical example:

I recently moved to another team within the same organization working on the same product but on a different level. The team from where I moved developed the stuff that got CI:d to customer builds and it would have been really difficult for me to imagine working remotely there as the work required often going around the floor asking about stuff (lots of undocumented legacy).

My new team focuses on tech and middleware and creates libraries for downstream to consume. Programmers work on their own libraries and I can go on for days without requiring input from anyone. On this team I could easily work remotely.

Based on my experience I would claim it depends on the designed team duties wether remote works or not. And I think this means that team organization must be tightly coupled with the software architecture design. I have no idea which should drive which but I'm pretty sure any changes in one should also be consciously reflected in another.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#98
post #2

The idea that remote work is a solution to immigration is also a meme on Twitter. I'm not sure I understand it. A San Francisco tech company can employ developers in Krakow to work remotely without dealing with visas. But those developers either need to be 1099 contractors, or loaned out from an outsourcing firm. Both options are poor. Outsourcing firms for obvious reasons (introducing a middleman that serves no purp…

Just because someone is on a different kind of contract (say a monthly retainer paid by wire, versus employee of US company paid with direct deposit) doesn't mean you need to treat them differently. Every "Automattician" at Automattic is viewed the same regardless of how their employment contract happens to work, and as you scale larger you can set up subsidiaries overseas to directly employ people. (We look at this…

How are you handling the tax implications of foreign workers? Are you doing something to withhold FICA/FUTA? I'm doing some research and I don't see the exception that says that workers that would otherwise be classified as full-time employees can instead be 1099 contractors simply because they're foreign; on the contrary, the SSA seems to say that you're required to ensure that foreign employees obtain social security numbers.

I'm not a lawyer, but I am an employer, and it is not clear to me that the "1099 remote worker" strategy is as clean a solution to the immigration problem as it's being made out to be.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#99
post #75
post #38

>Use WordPress and P2, use Slack, use G+ Hangouts, use Skype, use any of the amazing technology that allows us to collaborate as effectively online as previous generations of company did offline. I've been a 100% remote worker for 5+ years but I think we have to be honest here. All those teleconferencing/videoconferencing/virtualwhiteboards/etc are not as effective as everyone sharing the same physical workspace. Yes…

Harder problems than the Linux kernel? I've been remote for eight years now and I work on a codebase so huge that no one person understands it all beneath the 10,000 foot level. Nearly all of us are remote (only the managers are "local" to San Jose). Once a quarter we get together and meet up, coming from Vancouver, Toronto, Bangalore, Colorado and northern California.

> the Linux kernel?

Although it's insanely technically challenging, many computer science projects are more difficult than the Linux kernel to do remotely. For example, watching users interact with the software, anything that involves expensive test equipment, anything that runs on embedded/custom hardware.

Re: How Paul Graham Is Wrong

#100

Programmers, if they have a choice, like remote or at least some remote. Managers + VCs, if they have a choice, prefer all in the office so they can keep power but this actually makes them less competitive and more susceptible to physical disruptions: moving an office, an employee moving, time, office politics, commute, distractions, over meeting and more. The PG essay on this was glaringly overlooking that you can b…

there's a pretty big difference between "remote" and "some remote".
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