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Gmail blocked in China

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Re: Gmail blocked in China

#91

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

There are rational reasons to prefer authoritative government, especially in changing countries, especially without a tradition of democracy. I have no idea why GMail was censored, but I´m assuming it has to do with heightened security protocol. It is likely that some people in China used the service for nefarious purposes (local official corruption is probable) and that the authorities wanted to keep opposable proof, in order be able to show to increasingly disgruntled citizenry that the rule of law can work -- as opposed to the often preferred option of social-media fuelled lynching.

My point is not that banning GMail is good, but that you are judging an institution without knowing their intent. They could be wrong, but not for the reason that you do not give them.

I certainly agree on the balkanisation, though. Ebbs and flows, I hope.

As for your more general point: Western values are great in Western countries; Western inequality in a country with red envelopes and little over-sight of officials is less ideal. Western alcohol is fun in a fancy restaurant with a French ceremonial Maitre d´ that frowns on excess; it is less ideal in a country without a tradition for moderation. The subsequent lash out can be amusing where a hen party ends trying to act sober and cute in front of a jaded cop; it is far less so to see your touchy-feely employer come home drunk in a country where domestic employment is akin to servitude. I'm obviously exaggerating, but Westernisation (and simultaneous but unrelated issues, like working class disempowerment) has left many people wondering, and they found reasons to doubt.

If you are a traveller who mainly faces empowered businessmen , it is difficult to conceive good examples of this -- but many stories would make you pause. Vice.com (has a very criticisable editorial line, but) offers a unique look in many such examples: I remember a couple about plastic surgery that were very telling (and unexpected for people more used to judging people´s coding style on a screen than their physique on a dance floor), one in Korea the other in the Caribbean. International style magazine has lead Koreans to go under the knife and unreasonable amount of time to look more Westerners: nothing to do with SMTP in theory, but enough to let family members amalgamate Yahoo! editorial choices and their shame over a daughter´s botched operation. I have no idea what aspect of Western world leads women in the Central America to inject motor oil in their… Well, try to look for that episode if you care and care stand far more than gore (it is incredibly gross) but in it, you'll hear people accuse International standards and social media a lot. It is sad for Westerners living in an Emirate when that only bar where you can kiss in public without being scorned gets closed for `indecency´ but I suspect there are more nefarious things that have happened there than diplomats remembering their honeymoon in Paris. My experience is pushing on "What do you mean by corrupt Western values?" doesn't usually lead to a detailed description of a working democracy.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#92
post #88

Slightly OT, but I'm going to travel through China in a couple days and before reading this thread I thought I could get away with my VPN (hosted on my Digital Ocean VPS) plus eventually Tor, but now I'm not quite sure anymore. Could anybody shed light on this?

Not quite the same as what you're proposing but here's what I did. My parents were living in china for a few years and I set them up with a squid server on ec2 tokyo region micro instance with a script that would create a ssh tunnel to it and configured the browser to use it. Little hacky but it worked fine.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#93

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

what's happening in Syria(and other middle east countries) is worse than autocracy.

Autocracy over a state in chaos anyday.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#94
post #88

Slightly OT, but I'm going to travel through China in a couple days and before reading this thread I thought I could get away with my VPN (hosted on my Digital Ocean VPS) plus eventually Tor, but now I'm not quite sure anymore. Could anybody shed light on this?

VPN is roughly ok as long as your IP address is not in the blacklist. But it could be unstable. The GFW may drop your connections from time to time. I am not sure about Tor but I believe it probably doesn't work any more. Private VPN/shadowsocks is now the majority I think.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#95

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

I am not sure how blocking gmail has anything to do with democracy and "western values". OTOH the "western values" on the Internet as we've recently observed include total worldwide surveillance, hacking everything at will, manipulation of social networks and so on, so maybe your "democratic" high horse is not so high after all.

Surveillance is not a democratic value even the US is doing it.

I can't imagine if my government blocked my gmail . I'll lose not just my email,play, my app engine websites etc etc.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#96

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

"The people have chosen an autocratic government" - saying so is so unfair to us. Maybe people like me who desire for an unblocked Internet is a minority (when compared to the population in this country), but people who desire for safe milk and food, clean water and fresh air for their babies are not! But on the other hand, I must say that your observations described in your first paragraph are correct. Take the rece…

We in the US complain about our lack of choice in the political system. We have two parties, making our choices rather limited in elections.

However, China has a one party system. There is no counter to the Communist Party.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#97

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

I think you understand different values to be important than a Chinese does. A Chinese may not care about open internet as much as you do. (Though even that is for different reasons than you outlined. ie-not so much because of 'decadent values' as much as because the average Chinese believes the West uses the internet and Western news media outlets to 'keep China down'. It's more for nationalistic reasons than for values reasons.) But to say that, therefore, people in China want more oppression... is a bit of a stretch. They just see the open internet as a tool of Western oppression, and they say, "Good. The government is protecting me from it."

Now on other issues, Chinese are also demanding to be protected. From things like corruption. However, because of the way things work in China... this desire to be protected from corruption, at times, actually ends up strengthening the central government as well. This is because the people who are normally... say... appropriating land illegally... are local officials. The local people, on the other hand, know that if they protest long enough, and loud enough, that Beijing will come. At which point things will go in a decidedly bad fashion for the local bosses. So Beijing comes off as their 'savior' in a lot of these cases as well.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I really think Chinese are looking at the problems they have from a different perspective than you do. From their perspective... Beijing is a help with a lot of their issues... not a hindrance or the cause. From their perspective, oppression hasn't 'doubled down', Beijing is ALLEVIATING a lot of oppression. Getting a better understanding of how Chinese people feel about things... in addition to an understanding of which issues they believe Beijing to be the cause of, might go a long way towards alleviating your frustrations.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#98

Not surprising considering the tricks they've been pulling of late. What can be said here? The people have chosen an autocratic government and often, without me even provoking them, will tell me how superior is is to western values, the same way Russians will also do. As an international traveler and sometimes international worker, this is fairly typical stuff. I see this kind of thing on VK and Facebook all the time…

>> People just seem to prefer state controlled media or narratives that fit in with their biases

Except when they don't. For example, it is not unreasonable to say that Putin lost the presidential elections in many regions (recall news stories where they showed 150% of the vote). Most importantly this 'perceived' popularity leads to people not turning out to vote, making it a self fulfilling prophecy. Indeed, the basis for Putin's universal popularity is 'precieved' popularity.

Many Chinese support their cultural superiority BUT many will quickly point out problems with their government and the need for reform.

The population that genuinely supports autocratic systems in Russia and China are in the minority, the rest are dis-disorganized, demoralized and confused but they are also in the majority. That why China runs their firewall.

>> I personally don't have a big problem with this. Probably means less malware and cyberattacks for everyone.

The internet has a cultural program of uniting humanity which fosters understanding leading to practical things like trade and a less tit-for-tat aggression.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't my tunnel work in China?

The issue is that Google's mail servers can't communicate with servers within China, so any user of a Chinese mail service will not be able to send mail to Gmail users (and vice versa). If you are within China using a VPN to access Gmail, Google still can't send emails back in to Chinese machines.

This is the sort of thing SMTP relaying would be useful for, if it hadn't been effectively shut down by spammer abuse.

Re: Gmail blocked in China

#100

Travelling in China right now. No Google services work but Gmail via SMTP on my iPhone seems fine. I'm not confident all emails go through though. Heading to Hong Kong tonight so not sure if that will be different. Using VPN does open everything but obviously becomes slower. It's not only Google though, all social media. Speaking to locals they don't care. There is an alternative for everything and they are better su…

"They don't care??!!" There are 1.3 billion Chinese and half of them use the Internet, how many locals you have spoken with? I live in China and am in the IT industry, I know there are a lot people quit using Gmail because the ban, not to say Google Search.

This is just ridicilous.Why would they do that?
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