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Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

paulgraham.com

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Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#91

Post by vjz »

edw519 wrote: post #41

...and while you can train people to be competent, you can't train them to be exceptional. Why not? Every exceptional programmer I've ever met was unexceptional at one time. Something happened for them to become exceptional. I personally believe that while that "something" is most often "doing", "training" is often a big part of the equation. And that training is more often than not training their beliefs as much as…

Programming ability (similar to other STEM abilities) are power-law distributed, rather than Gaussian [1]. From this, it follows that training has very high probability of producing competent programmers but very low probability of producing exception programmers.

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877042813...

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#92

Post by slantedview »

Paul's entire argument is a strawman.

H1B isn't about hiring "great programmers". It IS about importing cheap labor. This fact has been proven many times, with actual data rather than rhetoric, yet we still find ourselves having this same argument over and over. Here's a nearly 10 year old study that lays it out:

http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#93

Post by OmarIsmail »

ta75757 wrote: post #62

Paul Graham is fighting for his side. I hope any developers here are smart enough to fight for theirs. He's arguing that the same companies who colluded illegally to drive down the wages of the "best" programmers, now have no interest in lowering their wages when they're arguing for increased immigration. LOL.

Paul Graham is representing the startups that he's invested in - not Apple, Google and FB.

The BigCos are already big enough to have international offices to mitigate these immigration issues. A 20 person startup doesn't.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#94

Post by smtddr »

michaelvkpdx wrote: post #75

Part of the reality of founding a company in the United States, and taking advantage of the freedoms and protections being in the USA offers, is that you have to work with the USA labor force. If you don't like it- well, go international. Fast food restaurants don't get to import the best burger-slingers from Germany. Software companies have to live in the same space. And it's complete and utter BS to suggest that th…

>>Fast food restaurants don't get to import the best burger-slingers from Germany. Software companies have to live in the same space.

I don't agree with this. The tech industry is beautiful & far-reaching in large part because it doesn't have the restrictions of proximity to the degree of many other industries. I would hate to see artificial limits placed on it to force the same conditions as traditional Brick and mortar businesses.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#95

Post by droopyEyelids »

rglullis wrote: post #80

One thing that I don't get about the critics (especially the liberal-inclined) from H1B programs is: even if opening the gates ends up resulting in cheaper labor, what is wrong about that? If the gates were open, the ones coming here to work for cheap won't be taking your jobs at the next startup fad. They will be working doing the things that Americans don't want to do: improving network infrastructure, doing boring…

What is wrong is that cheapness is enforced by making those laborers a second class citizen- they need to stay with the company that sponsors their visa or they get kicked out of the country.

Thats also the only reason why they're cheaper. Because, by law, their employers have stripped them of the only negotiating right an employee usually has- the ability to switch jobs.

This would be unethical enough if it existed in a vacuum, but instead it exists in context of citizens trying to get jobs, lowering their value while pitting them agains the workers without rights.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#96

Post by jarsin »

Please tell me how the startup you mention identifies great programmers.

I would not be suprised at all that they are yet another company that thinks solving trick programming questions under pressure is what makes someone great vs not great.

sorry but i call bs on your startup that cant find great programmers.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#97

Post by slantedview »

jitl wrote: post #84
austenallred wrote: post #12

I really want to believe this, but I'm not sure that I do. Of course the tech companies want to hire people from overseas; being able to hire someone from India for half the cost but have them live in the US so there's some level of accountability/trust is a no-brainer. Huge new, cheap talent pool. But, if I'm an entry-level, US-based programmer, what I see are floods of cheap talent, some with questionable skills, c…

Did you read the essay? You seem to be totally ignoring the point that excellent programmers will be paid well because they are scarce compared to "decent" programmers. The goal is not to import cut-rate talent at cut-rate prices.

Actually, studies have shown that IS the goal. It might not be Paul's goal, personally, but generally speaking it is the goal of immigration policy for tech workers - to make labor cheap.

Re: Let the Other 95% of Great Programmers In

#98

Post by adambratt »

michaelvkpdx wrote: post #75

Part of the reality of founding a company in the United States, and taking advantage of the freedoms and protections being in the USA offers, is that you have to work with the USA labor force. If you don't like it- well, go international. Fast food restaurants don't get to import the best burger-slingers from Germany. Software companies have to live in the same space. And it's complete and utter BS to suggest that th…

Uh....most railroad workers were immigrants.

I get your point but that probably wasn't the best example.

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