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Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

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Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#91

Post by jimmaswell »

evincarofautumn wrote: post #55
Rooster61 wrote: post #26

I really don't want to sound rude, but this sounds like a classic case of correlation not causality, and I could see the consequences really hurting some people. I am REALLY terrible at algebra (to the extent that I am borderline LD in math), and I have completed a degree in CS and hold a steady job as a software engineer. And I am definitely not the only one. Ask a room full of developers how many are bad at math, a…

There is a difference between “algebra with numbers” and “algebraic manipulation”. You do the latter all the time with code when you observe and use equivalences like this: if a then return b else return c === return (if a then b else c) I.e., “return” is distributive over the branches of the “if” expression, so you can factor it out. When you see “bad” programmers redundantly specifying Boolean expressions like “x =…

This skill can help to write more concise code and refactor better but I wouldn't say it's the core component. Very well-functioning, maintainable code could certainly be written that was full of "== true" lines. That is preferable to indecipherable long-winded one-liners with no comments that are hard to parse.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#92

Post by WoodenChair »

slashnull wrote: post #22

"Programming"? What kind of "programming"? What "ability"? Ability to write space-O(my_god * n) sorting algorithms? Ability to duct-tape queries to an ill-documented SOAP webservice and upsert the return into a Your-Boss-Normal-Form database schema? Ability to brutally optimize the runtime of a really hairy numerical analysis algorithm? Ability to design a centralized data pipeline architecture and lead 12 hackers du…

This is one of the most epic rants I've read on HN in quite a while. Thank you for the comedy, but it's unclear how anything beyond the first couple of paragraphs relates to the discussion here. You're saying that our education system produces ill-prepared CS graduates right? What does that have to do with the correlation between an algebra test and programming aptitude?

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#93

Post by hackinthebochs »

mentos wrote: post #48

I am not great at higher level Math (calculus) and I'm good with algebra but I do not think I'd consider those good predictors. I feel like what allows me to program is strong spatial reasoning. Doing a quick google search I found this: http://www.quora.com/Whats-the-nature-of-the-relationship-if... Probably just anecdotal but curious to know what others feel about spatial reasoning? I think specially with object ori…

I would also agree that spatial reasoning is key to strong programming ability. Most data structures are best understood through spatial reasoning, for example. But I would also say that spatial reasoning is key to mathematical ability. I'm actually surprised that you would consider yourself strong with spatial reasoning but had trouble with calculus. Perhaps you just had a bad teacher or lacked proper motivation?

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#95

Post by guard-of-terra »

Morgawr wrote: post #61

If there is one thing that has always bothered me, is people evaluating student's prowess in "Computer Science" (which is not programming, shame on you) by having them learn your normal run-of-the-mill programming language/paradigm like Javascript, Python, PHP and whatnot and then claim they are not apt to program because they cannot solve problems or handle variables, mutability, etc etc. There are A LOT of differen…

Recursion is as hard as mutable state to grasp if not harder. We might find a few people who can do one thing sligtly better than the other one, but not complete blanks.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#96

Post by Someone »

pflats wrote: post #13

>It’s fairly common for incoming Computer Science majors to ask the question, “Why do I have to learn all this math if I just want to learn to program?” Well, there's the reason you have a high drop-out rate in CS. People don't know what it is! Computer Science is not a vocational program. Computer Science is not computer programming. If someone had talked to these kids asking “Why do I have to learn all this math if…

And, likely, some good computer scientists would be lost to the world. You should also ask them why they want to learn programming. Many of them will answer they want to become programmers, while they do not have a clear picture of what that entails (it is not code writing all the time, most programmers do not write games in languages they chose, a lot, despite the fact that it is a job where all workers can automate repetitive jobs, a lot of the work is repetitive, etc)

Maybe, once they realize what is the difference between programming and computer science, they prefer computer science. Problem is you cannot learn them the difference in a few weeks; it takes years to sink in.

So, what do you let them do in the mean time? Waiting is a waste of the years in which learning is easiest for them. So, do we let some grown-up decide who likely will make a good computer scientist, or do we let many more start on that trajectory and see how far they get?

I think the latter is the better choice, if we also provide smooth ways to move from one to he other.

[slightly related: I once read a teacher in a nursing school state: "when they come in, all the boys want to ride an ambulance, and all the girls want to work with kids. We have to work a bit on that in the first year"]

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#97

Post by vorg »

> Despite hours of studying and tutoring, most of these underperforming students struggle with, and many ultimately give up on, programming as a career

They should follow the lead of those who figure out earlier they're not cut out for programming: embellish the CV with fake study, and go straight into the workforce as a programmer. Or they could get transferred into programming from some user department pitching to bring a "valuable user perspective" to IT. Or grease up some IT manager after-hours who'll bring them in as contractor with "special skills not readily available in the labor market" to bypass the usual HR checks and aptitude filters. Or if they're not of the same ethnicity as the HR personnel, send in a double to sit the aptitude test for them, knowing HR staff don't check applicant ID's too closely because they know no-one's going to make it through to an IT interview if they do. Most HR staff and IT managers just want the staff count up, they don't care whether they're productive or detrimental to the projects. If they have staff they have people to blame.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#98

Post by sysk »

ObviousScience wrote: post #53
Rooster61 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, but showing these graphs complete with the outliers gives a very poor platform to base handing out algebra tests in interviews without establishing causality.

> very poor platform to base handing out algebra tests in interviews without establishing causality Why? It probably shouldn't be your only criterion, but if it has a high correlation, why wouldn't that be sufficient for handing out algebra tests? A high correlation corresponds to predictive power, even if it's not a causal relationship.

I think the point being made is that there are probably predictors which have many orders of magnitude more predictive power (e.g. work experience, education, interview questions, programming exercise, available source code, etc.).

The male gender is probably correlated to programming ability as well due to the fact that there are more male programmers but it's not a very useful predictor.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#99

Post by kasey_junk »

mathattack wrote: post #28

For an article about math, they seem surprisingly weak at differentiating between causation and correlation. It’s fairly common for incoming Computer Science majors to ask the question, “Why do I have to learn all this math if I just want to learn to program?” The correlation above suggests a possible answer: The ability to understand basic mathematics is likely correlated with the ability to “think algorithmically,”…

Precisely what I thought as soon as I read the study, simply because I was terrible at math generally (and algebra specifically) before I studied CS. Afterwords, it turns out I'm fine at math generally (and have a bit of ability for algebra). The problem I had was not the content matter but the teaching paradigm.

A much more interesting experiment would be to add the algebra test back into the end of the program and see if there is improvement and how that correlates (or doesn't) to programming competence.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#100

Post by kasey_junk »

walshemj wrote: post #81
mathattack wrote: post #28

For an article about math, they seem surprisingly weak at differentiating between causation and correlation. It’s fairly common for incoming Computer Science majors to ask the question, “Why do I have to learn all this math if I just want to learn to program?” The correlation above suggests a possible answer: The ability to understand basic mathematics is likely correlated with the ability to “think algorithmically,”…

Should if you are going into a CE or CS course not have learnt to code at school before going to university English lit or classics students are expected to be able to read. I learnt to program when I was 13 and that was in the middle stream at my upper school

This is highly dependent on your opportunity. As hard as it is to find qualified math and english teachers prior to the college level, think how hard it would be to find programming instruction.

That is to say, when I was in school before university there was no choice for studying programming.

There was but it was offered at a private religious school/camp, not via the public schools.

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