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The Open-Office Trap

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91–100 of 194 posts

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#91
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the problem wasn't the open office plan but grown-ups playing with nerf guns and ping pong when they're being paid to work.

But do you honestly work every second of every workhour? This isn't Germany, breaks and downtime are inevitable

No, I don't. But I don't through a nerf ball around the office either. Sure, some people may need a break of think better when doing an activity but you have to be a moron to think throwing something around an office is ok. Go for a walk. Find another bored employee to talk to. Browse the web. Grow up.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

>Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. I think you're off by quite a bit with your price-per-square-foot estimates: http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/10/01/manhattan-leasing-str... That is from last year and the average price in Manhattan was about $60/sf.

[deleted]

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#93
post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

>So the employer is saving, at absolute most, $5000 per employee per year. It's not worth it.

And yet not only are employers embracing it but extending the model with hoteling and virtual desktops. A good friend of mine at Shell checks into his locker every morning and then goes and finds a random desk to work from for the day. I'll give you 10:1 the guy whose idea that was isn't sitting at a cube.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#94
post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

I'm apparently one of the few unashamed Open Office boosters here, so let me see if I can help.

I've worked as a developer for about 12+ years, then as a product/project manager for about 4 years. As a developer, I worked about half that time in soft-walled cubicles of various heights and another half in open office environments. I spent a year or so in a shared walled office. As a project guy, I spent about 3 years in an open office and 1 in a shared walled office (2people).

With my dev lead and project management hats on, open offices wins hands down. Whenever I want I can stand up and do a quick and dirty eyeball scan of the office and gauge who's deep in thought and shouldn't be disturbed, who maybe needs help with something, who's picking their nose on Facebook. Project goals, milestones, etc. can be on prominent display on the walls, so everyone can easily reference them--no more "oh, I didn't know we were releasing next Monday" excuses. Whiteboards all over the place so people can get up and do a quick informal collaboration, then visually reference it later from their desks. Everyone sees everyone all day, bringing an extra bit of team unity, nobody gets to hidey-hole in their office, pretending to not be part of a team. Daily stand-up meeting is quick to set up and painless, it takes a minute for everyone to just get up and walk over to the scrum corner, as opposed to having to lose 10 minutes every time waiting for everyone to decide to come out of their hiding holes. If I do have a quick question, I can tell if they're in the middle of something concentrating by just glancing over their way rather than having to knock on their office door (guaranteeing that I disturb them).

With my developer hat on, it's a bit of a toss up. I can appreciate the benefit of having a quiet, closed-in space to go deep on a problem. And open offices, while they can be quiet if you set basic etiquette rules, will never match the volume level in closed offices. But, in an open office, there's zero friction if someone needs to come chat about the code, collaborate, bounce ideas off me, and vice versa. I've never been offended when someone stopped by to discuss a problem they're having, or ask to review their approach or code. Sure, it gets you out of "the zone" a bit, but you just get back into it. The whole business about having to waste an hour to get back into the zone after an interruption is, frankly, total BS. One thing I'll say though, is the cubicles are the worst of both worlds: You have the noise level of an open office combined with the high-friction human interaction, collaboration that's limited to online tools, and hidey-hole mentality. I'd take either option over a cubicle any day.

I think my ideal office environment is open offices for everyone, but with small private workrooms here and there that people can reserve in 2hr blocks or so, where they can go away into if they really need that occasional alone time to get the job done.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#95
post #43

Well, Facebook is building the world's largest open bullpen office, with 2800 workers in 1 room(!) I wonder what they think of this research that shows open office plans being detrimental. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/27/article-2331658-1A... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2584738/Now-T...

They know about the research but usually say it's more important that "openness" is a "core value" e.g., https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5768771

Maybe I'm being cynical but I don't believe it when people say open plans result in more "collaboration" or "openness". It just sounds like a rationalization

By far the most collaborative environments for me have been individual offices or two to an office.

In an open floorplan I find myself constantly being distracted and trying to wall people off, which makes my emotional state less open to discussion... because I'm trying to focus on work.

With an office with one or two people in it, you don't have to worry as much, can be more open because you know you will get time to focus.

The company I work for is moving from individual offices to an open floor plan. They didn't even bother to talk to programmers about it, and admitted they looked at individual office locations but didn't think it mattered when we protested.

They've also gone from a 6 person dev team to now 3. While there are many problems that caused me and the other two people to leave, them choosing an open office without consulting use and then blowing off our objections is characteristic of the disrespect they show generally.

I think that companies with open office plans don't really respect engineers. And I include google and Facebook in this assessment.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#96
I'm curious about private offices and regions. While it was possible to find companies in the Bay Area that offered private offices, I have yet to find any here in Tokyo. I've assumed it's because real estate in Tokyo is more expensive, but what about other cities around the world?

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#97
post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

That's an interesting point. It reminds me of something Joel Spolsky wrote: Here's the simple algebra. Let's say (as the evidence seems to suggest) that if we interrupt a programmer, even for a minute, we're really blowing away 15 minutes of productivity. For this example, lets put two programmers, Jeff and Mutt, in open cubicles next to each other in a standard Dilbert veal-fattening farm. Mutt can't remember the na…

Does FogCreek still have the "Bionic Offices"? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BionicOffice.html

I thought the "light on two sides" was particularly clever.

One thing holding back enclosed offices in SF is the very high ceilings in many of the older buildings. would high walled cubes work?

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#98
post #22

Open office plans seem really polarizing on HN, but it surprises me how often people defend them here (or even evangelize them). For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. For the people who do prefer them (and also spend most of their time writing code), I would be curious to know the following: (1) How many years have…

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

This seems like an unfairly-condescending post to me. The last line primarily. I don't think that having an open office implies the stereotypical "nerf gun wars, billiards, and foosball" environment (or at least it doesn't at the company I'm working for). Nor does it mean that those who work in it are irresponsible, immature, or self-important. Certainly those conditions exist, but it's not fair to generalize it that far.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software development, it seems like something that has no upside at all (aside from saving money on office space), and tons of downsides. Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. Open plan offices save about 75-100 SF per employee (more, if you're looking to be sadistic and impractical, but at this point, the productivity loss is obvious.) So the employe…

>Commercial real estate is about $3/SF (per month) in San Francisco (Class A) and $4/SF in Manhattan. I think you're off by quite a bit with your price-per-square-foot estimates: http://therealdeal.com/blog/2013/10/01/manhattan-leasing-str... That is from last year and the average price in Manhattan was about $60/sf.

Urban office leasing is almost universally quoted by yearly rates (for whatever reason), but your parent poster quoted by the month instead.

$60/sf/yr works out to $5/sf/month, not far from your parent poster's assertion.

Re: The Open-Office Trap

#100

In San Francisco the pendulum has definitely swung back closer to center (the scale being all open to combination of open and private to private office intensive) with most startups occupying a hybrid solution with a myriad of breakout rooms and smaller meeting spaces / soft seating. The trend over the last decade began with die-hard open office plan fanpeople (breaking free of dads private office intensive historica…

I work in a place that has open offices, but broken into pods of 20 or so desks. In addition to that there are meeting rooms and a more general-use area. It's rather similar to the start up offices you describe (I have seen Airbnb's in person).

I like this setup, I find it freeing because you can move to where you are more comfortable working at any given time. But the catch is, you can't just say seating is "variable" as a way of punting on giving people desks. Everyone should have a place that undisputedly belongs to them.

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