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Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

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Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#91

Post by wdewind »

apaprocki wrote: post #78
jff wrote: post #44

I wish all police everywhere started ticketing for more traffic violations. When everyone on the road--cyclist, motorist, and pedestrian--follows the rules precisely, traffic is predictable and safe. When morons wave you through at a 4-way stop, or turn without signaling (yay California), or blow red lights on their bicycle, you have to go into extra-defensive mode because the road is no longer predictable.

In NYC I couldn't want this more. For example, traffic on the Queensboro bridge gets backed up regularly entering Manhattan in the morning. If you go down to the streets the bridge exits out onto, cars/trucks are routinely parked on the sides of the road during prohibited rush hour windows, essentially restricting traffic down to 1 lane instead of the intended 2 or 3. All it takes is 1 traffic cop to be assigned the…

My impression as a pedestrian in NYC is also that blocking the box is far more impactful on traffic and safety than over all speed limit. I agree 100% that police need to more aggressively ticket blocking the box over almost all other traffic offenses.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#92

Post by nickkthequick »

ericHosick wrote: post #74
jff wrote: post #44

I wish all police everywhere started ticketing for more traffic violations. When everyone on the road--cyclist, motorist, and pedestrian--follows the rules precisely, traffic is predictable and safe. When morons wave you through at a 4-way stop, or turn without signaling (yay California), or blow red lights on their bicycle, you have to go into extra-defensive mode because the road is no longer predictable.

> because the road is no longer predictable It will never be fully predictable: people make mistakes. It is always safer and better to assume that someone will do something unpredictable like run a red light. It could even be because of mechanical error. When riding motorcycles in ~~Asia~~ some asian countries (did it for 6 years), you assume that people will run the red light. It happens, during rush hour, 100% of t…

You're saying that Asian countries have fewer accidents because people run red lights? Do you have a source on any of this?

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#93

Post by Alupis »

tzakrajs wrote: post #83
Strang wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people complain about waving at a four-way stop all the time, and I really don't get it. I wave people through at four-way stops all the time, for the simple reason that it can be hard to tell who arrived first. Especially with rolling stops and the like. So rather than assume that the other drivers have come to the same conclusion that I have, I make it explicit by waving. Sometimes it's a little confusing if…

Turn without waiting since the other person is highly likely to wait anyways. Problem solved.

> highly likely to wait anyways

Better have good insurance. Defensively driving is the best way to avoid accidents and collisions. Always assume the other party will do something wrong, and you will be far safer because of it.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#94

Post by Alupis »

jff wrote: post #90
ceejayoz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just saying part of the problem is that cyclists behave as a squishy bag of meat in an accident . Given the prevalence of inattentive motorists, I'm not shocked some folks prefer to risk a ticket.

Say the speed limit is 30, and you can pedal along at 15 mph. If you ride with traffic and get hit, your relative speed at collision will be 15 mph and the collision will push you away from the car. If you ride against traffic and get hit, you're dealing with a head-on collision at 45 mph relative speed. That's why I always ride with traffic.

Probably a decent thing to do in high-traffic/large cities. But in more rural areas, where speed limits are 45-65MPH, getting hit is deadly no matter which direction you are riding. It's safer to see oncomming traffic in this situation so you can get out of the way.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#95

Post by kaybe »

1971genocide wrote: post #61
Arainach wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those of us that are safe cyclists but run red lights Speaking as someone who bikes/takes transit everywhere (in Seattle, not NYC), what an oxymoron. I'm not saying that at every single stop sign you have to come to a complete, foot-on-the-ground stop, but running lights is ridiculous and will do nothing but increase the hatred for all cyclists held by drivers by antagonizing them. Every OTHER form of transportatio…

I do not think bikes need to stop at red lights, current laws and urban design are designed to make it really comfortable for cars. It also makes is more dangerous for me to stop at red lights - because cyclists are bottlenecks in road. they can easily cause a lot of cars to slow down. I have had situations where I stopped at a red light and 4 huge lorries were behind me and once the signal got green they tried to ov…

In this situation, it's best to make it impossible for them to pass until it's safe (by riding in the middle of the lane).

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#96

Post by ceejayoz »

jff wrote: post #90
ceejayoz wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just saying part of the problem is that cyclists behave as a squishy bag of meat in an accident . Given the prevalence of inattentive motorists, I'm not shocked some folks prefer to risk a ticket.

Say the speed limit is 30, and you can pedal along at 15 mph. If you ride with traffic and get hit, your relative speed at collision will be 15 mph and the collision will push you away from the car. If you ride against traffic and get hit, you're dealing with a head-on collision at 45 mph relative speed. That's why I always ride with traffic.

That's valid assuming I have an equal chance of getting hit in both situations.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#97

Post by ohashi »

mikeash wrote: post #58
jasonjei wrote: post #37

As a motorcyclist, I think cyclists should be held to the same rules of the law as other vehicles to make driving predictable and safe. As it stands right now, I have to assume cyclists (via heuristics/profiling) as a wildcard--will they run a red light? Will they weave in and out of traffic unsafely (this is an acceptable practice, when done with ample buffer given their size and speed)? I think cycling is great (I'…

Around here (DC area) I have to assume that about drivers too. I've seen drivers blow through red lights, turn right on red from the center lane while pedestrians are trying to cross the street, even drive the wrong way down one-way roads, or on the wrong side of a divided road. Drivers fail to use their turn signals more often than not. Crossing the street in front of a car is a crapshoot, as people will often look…

As a driver in DC, I can think of many 'almost accidents' and they are about equally distributed between cars and bicyclists. I see a lot fewer bicyclists though when I'm driving. Anecdotally, I find them far more likely to cause a near accident. With cars, they are larger, easier to see and in general behave more predictably. Sure, they may not signal properly a lot, but I leave enough room between cars to let bad behavior not be dangerous. Bicyclists weave through traffic and ignore all signage. It's a lot harder to drive safely around bicyclists. I see them do all the things you're calling out cars for (no signaling, going wrong way down 1 way streets, weaving through traffic and blowing through red lights).

When I'm walking in DC, I don't actually find cars that threatening, I've never been nearly hit by one living here 29 years. Bicyclists here have a dont give a fuck attitude towards every other user of the road/sidewalks though and I've nearly been hit on many occasions .

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#98

Post by lutorm »

rcthompson wrote: post #89
Strang wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people complain about waving at a four-way stop all the time, and I really don't get it. I wave people through at four-way stops all the time, for the simple reason that it can be hard to tell who arrived first. Especially with rolling stops and the like. So rather than assume that the other drivers have come to the same conclusion that I have, I make it explicit by waving. Sometimes it's a little confusing if…

No, I think you're talking about a situation where two cars are pulling up to an empty intersection simultaneously. That's a low-traffic situation. The problem comes when you're at a 4-way stop and people are coming from every direction. Anyone who wants to go through the intersection needs the cars from at least two other directions to let them through. So you, as one person, waving them through is pointless because…

At 4-way stops in heavy traffic, it's difficult at best to tell the order in which people should go. If there's more than one lane in each direction, it becomes practically impossible.

Imho, 4-way stops are terrible no matter how you slice it: in heavy traffic they're really inefficient not to mention difficult to navigate, and should be replaced with a traffic light. In light traffic they're also inefficient, and should be replaced with a yield from the non-dominant direction.

In Sweden the default rule at an unsigned intersection is that you yield to the right. This means there's a well-defined algorithm for conflict resolution without putting stop signs at every little intersection. Apparently the idea that you could possibly navigate an intersection without signage is absurd to Americans, though.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#99

Post by jff »

rcthompson wrote: post #89
Strang wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see people complain about waving at a four-way stop all the time, and I really don't get it. I wave people through at four-way stops all the time, for the simple reason that it can be hard to tell who arrived first. Especially with rolling stops and the like. So rather than assume that the other drivers have come to the same conclusion that I have, I make it explicit by waving. Sometimes it's a little confusing if…

No, I think you're talking about a situation where two cars are pulling up to an empty intersection simultaneously. That's a low-traffic situation. The problem comes when you're at a 4-way stop and people are coming from every direction. Anyone who wants to go through the intersection needs the cars from at least two other directions to let them through. So you, as one person, waving them through is pointless because…

> Of course, there's always a race condition and potential for deadlock when two cars arrive simultaneously at an empty intersection, and waving people through is a safe and necessary way to solve that.

There are very clear right-of-way rules for this situation, and if both drivers can manage to remember those simple rules, no hand signals will be needed.

Re: Is the NYPD About to Start Ticketing More Cyclists Due to a Mathematical Error?

#100

Post by judk »

ecopoesis wrote: post #29
Brian-Puccio wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the issues is that lots of people play fast and loose with the rules when moving about ... whether it be walking, bicycling or driving. And it's so easy to say "well I use this mode and I notice the people who use THAT mode are constantly breaking the rules and that's not safe!". If there's a demand to enforce the rules more stringently in the name of safety, would those doing the demanding also want t…

I for one would love to see more enforcement of jaywalking. I drive through the intersection of Cambridge and First in Cambridge, MA by Lechmere almost every day, and the jaywalkers who ignore their lights to run for the trolley cause far more traffic problems and almost accidents and then cars or bikes.

Sounds like we need longer light phases to keep cars out of the way of trolley riders. People first.
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