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Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

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Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#91

Post by AnimalMuppet »

anigbrowl wrote: post #90
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting water in Utah is a bit harder than just sinking a well and pulling water from the ground. Even if you get water, it's likely to have high sand and/or salt content, making it unsuitable for water cooling of electronics. And as you said, > I can't take your ideas about policy seriously if you are not connected to practical reality. Yup.

When you have the Army Corps of Engineers and a massive budget at your disposal, such problems tend to become marginal. It seems to have escaped everyone's attention that the Utah data center is only a couple of miles away from Utah's largest freshwater lake and there's a smaller lake only around a mile away, which already serves Camp William. The nearest river is only about 500 yards from the data center. https://ww…

OK, first you said "Just dig a well", now you want to get the water from the river. But again, it may not be that simple.

Do you know how much water is in that river? It isn't all that large. Do you know how much of the water is already spoken for by various canals and city water treatment plants? Do you know whether any of the water in that river is actually available?

Same thing with the lake. The lake is the only supply of water to the river. You can't just pump a bunch of water out of the lake without cutting out the people downstream who need the water from the river.

This is Utah. It's a desert. Water's not a real plentiful commodity out here. It's precious and scarce. Most of the easy answers don't work. (If they did, somebody else would already be using the water from that source.)

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#92

Post by semanticist »

MrZongle2 wrote: post #84
spacemanmatt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite accurate. Republicans are all about their personal liberty, at the cost of yours and mine. It's not that surprising that some Republicans favor cutting the NSA's water, it's just bitterly ironic.

Don't confuse Republicans with conservatives : the latter, which generally are for personal liberty for all, are just a subset of the former. Spend some time in conservative circles and you'll learn that there's not a lot of love for the GOP leadership. Conservatives (both fiscal and social flavors; they too are not just one and the same) vote Republican for the same reason many on the Left vote Democrat: not that th…

Outside of the US it's reasonable to 'paint' the political Left as socialists, mostly because they actually are. Other countries have actual functioning Leftist parties, America has far-Right and extraordinarily far-Right. (Although, I'll grant you that it might not seem that way from inside the US political 'bubble'.)

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#93

Post by anigbrowl »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #91
anigbrowl wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have the Army Corps of Engineers and a massive budget at your disposal, such problems tend to become marginal. It seems to have escaped everyone's attention that the Utah data center is only a couple of miles away from Utah's largest freshwater lake and there's a smaller lake only around a mile away, which already serves Camp William. The nearest river is only about 500 yards from the data center. https://ww…

OK, first you said "Just dig a well", now you want to get the water from the river. But again, it may not be that simple. Do you know how much water is in that river? It isn't all that large. Do you know how much of the water is already spoken for by various canals and city water treatment plants? Do you know whether any of the water in that river is actually available? Same thing with the lake. The lake is the only…

I'm perfectly well aware that Utah is a desert, thanks. I also thought about who was using the water already; if I was the federal government I could, in a pinch, just eminent-domain the golf course that sits adjacent to the river in question. I would much prefer, of course, to have the Army Corps of Engineers

You can keep pretending that if this bill were to pass it would be a huge problem for the NSA and the feds, but the idea that the Utah government would be able to hold the facility hostage is a ridiculous pipe-dream.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#94

Post by ende »

Osiris wrote: post #54

> “What’s noteworthy is no one on the panel said: ‘Hey, wait a minute, we can’t do this,'” he says. “They had some specific concerns about the language of the bill, but there was no outright opposition.” That's pretty surprising given how incredibly conservative/Republican the state of Utah is. I'd be surprised if the bill passed (and if it was it would surely be caught up in litigation), but kudos to someone in such…

Your comment implies that the national security state is a partisan issue, which does not seem to be the case at all. Democrats are often some of the worst offenders on this issue (see the current administration), while the Republican side contains both your John McCains and Rand Pauls. The line that divides advocates of security vs freedom cuts across America in a way that cannot be described by outdated left-right ideological nomenclature.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#95

Post by ende »

semanticist wrote: post #92
MrZongle2 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't confuse Republicans with conservatives : the latter, which generally are for personal liberty for all, are just a subset of the former. Spend some time in conservative circles and you'll learn that there's not a lot of love for the GOP leadership. Conservatives (both fiscal and social flavors; they too are not just one and the same) vote Republican for the same reason many on the Left vote Democrat: not that th…

Outside of the US it's reasonable to 'paint' the political Left as socialists, mostly because they actually are. Other countries have actual functioning Leftist parties, America has far-Right and extraordinarily far-Right. (Although, I'll grant you that it might not seem that way from inside the US political 'bubble'.)

This is common rhetoric from America's own left but it isn't entirely accurate, and is largely offset by the fact that American use of the term Liberalism differs vastly with the rest of the world and history. Actual socialist parties have waned to a barely marginal existence in most European countries, and often have at most a "tea party" like relationship to more center-left social-democratic parties. America's Democratic Party is closer to a European Social Democrat party than a centrist European Liberal Democrat party, as America's use of the word Liberal is far to the left of European use of the term. Many European countries have sizable centrist 'classical liberal' parties that would actually be considered 'to the right' of American liberals, oddly enough.

So no, America is not really a right and far right country, it's more a polity of extreme Conservative and progressive ideologies lorded over by two centrist parties with a heavily authoritarian commonality between them. What the U.S. entirely lacks is an anti-authoritarian centrist Liberalism akin to that in Europe.

To illustrate, if we were to align US parties to those parties in the UK, you'd likely get the following: the conservative Republicans (US) align to the conservative Tories (US), the far right Tea Party aligns to the far right UKIP (UK), the progressive Democrats (US) align to the social democratic Labor party (UK), and then the UK's centrist Liberal Democrats do not align to any recognizable political organization in the US. The UK Lib Dems at best might loosely align to a combination of US civil libertarians and classical liberals, both of which belong more or less to the politically homeless. Some might say those fall under the Democrat tent, and yet the most vocal proponent of civil liberties in the US government right now is conservative Rand Paul, so go figure.

To come full circle, a US equivalent of the UK LibDems, were it to exist, would likely be the most vocal opposition to the NSA.

Appropriate username btw :)

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#96

Post by ende »

buttcoinslol wrote: post #23
thizzbuzz wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not convinced that the NSA has any purpose. What do you think is necessary about the NSA?

Collecting and analyzing information for foreign intelligence and counter-intelligence. This seems like a fairly necessary organ of state for the country with the largest military in the world.

But that's what the CIA does. Which one is redundant then?

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#97

Post by semanticist »

ende wrote: post #95
semanticist wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of the US it's reasonable to 'paint' the political Left as socialists, mostly because they actually are. Other countries have actual functioning Leftist parties, America has far-Right and extraordinarily far-Right. (Although, I'll grant you that it might not seem that way from inside the US political 'bubble'.)

This is common rhetoric from America's own left but it isn't entirely accurate, and is largely offset by the fact that American use of the term Liberalism differs vastly with the rest of the world and history. Actual socialist parties have waned to a barely marginal existence in most European countries, and often have at most a "tea party" like relationship to more center-left social-democratic parties. America's Dem…

Labour aren't really social democratic any more - they've basically isolated themselves from the Labour Movement and are fully committed to US-style Corporatist capitalism. In that regard, I agree, they're roughly equivalent to the US Democratic party and doesn't really represent a leftist movement.

The Lib Dems are ineffective, where's the US comparison to the SNP, the Greens, the SSP, actual parties of the left?

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#98

Post by MrZongle2 »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #88
MrZongle2 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't confuse Republicans with conservatives : the latter, which generally are for personal liberty for all, are just a subset of the former. Spend some time in conservative circles and you'll learn that there's not a lot of love for the GOP leadership. Conservatives (both fiscal and social flavors; they too are not just one and the same) vote Republican for the same reason many on the Left vote Democrat: not that th…

To be a social conservative is to necessarily want a return to the world in which women and minorities knew their place.

[Citation Needed]

To be sure, a thorough examination of social conservative thought will be fascinating reading.

Re: Utah Considers Cutting Off Water to the NSA’s Monster Data Center

#99

Post by ende »

semanticist wrote: post #97
ende wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is common rhetoric from America's own left but it isn't entirely accurate, and is largely offset by the fact that American use of the term Liberalism differs vastly with the rest of the world and history. Actual socialist parties have waned to a barely marginal existence in most European countries, and often have at most a "tea party" like relationship to more center-left social-democratic parties. America's Dem…

Labour aren't really social democratic any more - they've basically isolated themselves from the Labour Movement and are fully committed to US-style Corporatist capitalism. In that regard, I agree, they're roughly equivalent to the US Democratic party and doesn't really represent a leftist movement. The Lib Dems are ineffective, where's the US comparison to the SNP, the Greens, the SSP, actual parties of the left?

Right you are, and I'm pretty sure in any European (or other developed) country wherever you find a social democratic party you'll also find a contingent of disenchanted social democrats complaining about how their social democratic party isn't social democratic enough. It could be argued that social democracy naturally lends itself towards corporatism by its very nature. I'm not sure why you say 'US-style Corporatist capitalism' though.. the UK and the rest of Europe were practicing it long before America. Heck, Thatcher predates Reagan too, if that's the angle you had in mind.

I think it's too soon to judge whether the Lib Dems are ineffective.. they're still a young party and are growing faster than either the Tories or Labor (correct me if I'm wrong there). The current system does not favor their existence, so electoral reform is their main priority. The same should be true for all third party movements in the US, as the current system is mathematically predisposed towards two party outcomes. It's not that just hard left parties are missing from the American party system, but rather any partisan organization outside of the two major parties.

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