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Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

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Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#91
post #46

In a world where people copyright the laws you are supposed to follow I can't imagine they won't let people copyright an API that absolutely is a creative work. Instead we should accept that they can be under copyright but make implementing and using them explicitly fair use.

> copyright the laws That's an excellent point. If you run a service, you can use someone else's TOS and apply it to your customers. It is the outcome of intellectual work, for instance a lawyer's work, and it is under copyright. However, it is not clever to reuse someone else's contract anyway and you'd better use a lawyer to check its terms. Therefore I don't think the wording of contracts, norms, standards and law…

Whatever you may think the wording of contracts [etc] pretty clearly falls under copyright protection in the US. The wording.

What does not (or has not before) are the _meanings_. You in fact, can't, under US law, take someone elses TOS and just plain copy it. I'm not sure if you meant to say "can't" instead of "can" in your comment -- but in fact, you pretty clearly can't just copy the text of the TOS.

What you can do is write your own TOS based on the exact same categories of allowed and unallowed behavior.

> Think about a US law writer prosecuting Germany for "a law which proceeds the same way as one which was established in US" under patent infringement.

Are you talking about patent or copyright? Two entirely different laws, which protect different things in different ways.

You could -- quite clearly and uncontroversially -- _not_ accuse someone else of "proceeding the same way" and thus violating your copyright. Copyright simply doesn't protect "ways of proceeding".

If you could get some government to issue you a patent on your law (which I don't _think_ you could, but who knows these days in the U.S. which seems happy to issue a patent on nearly anything), then you might be succesful in a patent infringement case. Patent and copyright are entirely different things.

If they copied the exact text of your law, then that might be a copyright violation. Copying the "proceeding the same way"? The sorts of things you want to regulate or prohibit and the nature of the penalties or whatever? Nope. Copryight simply does not go there.

(The fact that in the U.S., nothing created by the federal government is protected by copyright anyway -- is really a side-issue, something unique to U.S. law, and not really relevant to the present topic, although it is a thing).

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#92
post #25
post #3

Although these issues are very important, something feels wrong about having the Supreme Court justices (avg. age ~70) rule on tech matters like this. We need a new legal system for arbitrating disputes in technical disciplines overseen by a panel of technical experts. Or perhaps a trial by jury where the selection criteria is employment in the relevant discipline for at least 10 years (academia or corporate).

I disagree. This is not a case where you're digging around in the weeds trying to figure out which function does what. You don't need to be a computer scientist to understand the legally-relevant concepts in a case like this. Especially at the appellate level, where you're working with high-level concepts, and where you have people with the relevant technological background submitting amicus briefs explaining the con…

> The real issue in this case is that a judge, applying the copyright law, simply does not care about whether finding API's to be copyrightable hinders interoperability or cloning of software. It's simply not legally relevant.

How is it not? Interoperability is functional. If you can't copyright function then you shouldn't be able to copyright anything necessary for interoperability.

> The lynchpin of copyright is originality and creativity. Are the Java API's original and creative? That's the only relevant question.

That obviously isn't the only question, otherwise you could copyright anything which is patentable and get 95 years of monopoly rather than 20.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#93
post #28

Signed by 1. Harold Abelson.* 2. Alfred V. Aho 3. Tom Ball.* 4. John Perry Barlow 5. Brian Behlendorf 6. Richard A. Belgard 7. Jon Bentley 8. Matthew Bishop 9. Joshua Bloch 10. Dan Boneh 11. Gilad Bracha.* 12. Eric Brewer.* 13. Frederick Brooks 14. Rick Cattell 15. Vinton G. Cerf.* 16. William Cook 17. Ward Cunningham 18. Mark Davis.* 19. Jeffrey Dean.* 20. L Peter Deutsch 21. David L. Dill 22. Les Earnest 23. Brenda…

I thought Guido van Rossum was with Google now.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#94
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be missing the meaning of the word API. I sugest you look it out.

I've always understood API as "Application" (meaning application, program, something similar to script) "Programming" (creating code, writing) "Interface" (abstract definition of meaning of variables and functions, preferably with some code that makes those meanings "live", something real, "behind" those variable and function names). Maybe I'm wrong. However code is code, be it a library, module, framework, API, prog…

Code can implement an API, but an API is not code. Not using any reasonable definition of code. Code is something you are theoretically able to execute, in one way or another.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#95
post #28

Signed by 1. Harold Abelson.* 2. Alfred V. Aho 3. Tom Ball.* 4. John Perry Barlow 5. Brian Behlendorf 6. Richard A. Belgard 7. Jon Bentley 8. Matthew Bishop 9. Joshua Bloch 10. Dan Boneh 11. Gilad Bracha.* 12. Eric Brewer.* 13. Frederick Brooks 14. Rick Cattell 15. Vinton G. Cerf.* 16. William Cook 17. Ward Cunningham 18. Mark Davis.* 19. Jeffrey Dean.* 20. L Peter Deutsch 21. David L. Dill 22. Les Earnest 23. Brenda…

I thought Guido van Rossum was with Google now.

He's with Dropbox, I believe.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#96
post #25
post #3

Although these issues are very important, something feels wrong about having the Supreme Court justices (avg. age ~70) rule on tech matters like this. We need a new legal system for arbitrating disputes in technical disciplines overseen by a panel of technical experts. Or perhaps a trial by jury where the selection criteria is employment in the relevant discipline for at least 10 years (academia or corporate).

I disagree. This is not a case where you're digging around in the weeds trying to figure out which function does what. You don't need to be a computer scientist to understand the legally-relevant concepts in a case like this. Especially at the appellate level, where you're working with high-level concepts, and where you have people with the relevant technological background submitting amicus briefs explaining the con…

"The lynchpin of copyright is originality and creativity. Are the Java API's original and creative? That's the only relevant question.[2]"

This is 100% false of course. My shopping lists are creative and original, but certainly not copyrightable.

You know it's not the only question, and not even the most relevant one (which is whether the structure, sequence, and organization part of an API is the copyrightable part, or whether the literal implementation only is protected).

"[2] Having written internal API's for software products, I would say they definitely are! API design is hard work that requires a lot of careful thought. Making a beautiful API is as much a creative expression as writing a sonnet or a short story, and is no less deserving of copyright protection."

1. API's are not expressions of anything. They are literally interfaces. An outline of a story in abstract terms is not copyrightable. The actual story is. Such should it be with API's. API's are not copyrightable, their implementations are.

2. The fact that it is hard work and requires careful thought is 100% irrelevant in united states copyright law, since we have no sweat of the brow doctrine.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably depends whether the people reading it know who the people signing it actually are. Vint Cerf, Ken Thompson and Ray Kurzweil now work for Google but that doesn't mean they aren't still Vint Cerf, Ken Thompson and Ray Kurzweil.

It also doesn't mean that they're not still Google employees.

What are you proposing then? A conflict of interest requirement for amici? Nobody motivated to write one would ever be allowed to.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#98
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be right. But our current system is already egregiously abused with minimal cleverness. One can predict with high accuracy a SC Justice's vote on most cases based on the political party of the president who appointed him/her.

> One can predict with high accuracy a SC Justice's vote on most cases based on the political party of the president who appointed him/her. Having taken a number of law and judicial politics courses, I can say this has been studied and its not at all true. You can tell with some accuracy a SC Justice's vote on issues that had high political salience at the time the individual justice was appointed by the position of…

Yeah, that comment was silly. SCOTUS decides ~100 cases a year, and less than 10 are 5-4 decisions. Even even some of the 5-4 votes aren't split along ideological lines.

Sometimes you can predict how a given Justice will act, based on how he feels about the specifics of similar cases.

Re: Computer Scientists Ask Supreme Court to Rule APIs Can’t Be Copyrighted

#99
post #94
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always understood API as "Application" (meaning application, program, something similar to script) "Programming" (creating code, writing) "Interface" (abstract definition of meaning of variables and functions, preferably with some code that makes those meanings "live", something real, "behind" those variable and function names). Maybe I'm wrong. However code is code, be it a library, module, framework, API, prog…

Code can implement an API, but an API is not code. Not using any reasonable definition of code. Code is something you are theoretically able to execute, in one way or another.

OK, for some time I've lived in one file projects (PHP) where I've defined interface and in the same file implemented the code itself, so I've seen too little difference... Maybe in other projects the difference is sharper.

Is MOOPH module copyright protected?

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