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OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

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Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#91
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that you used the example of eBay. I remember reading about the alleged reason eBay acquired Skype. Skype is a peer to peer network. The guys behind it were the guys behind Kazaa, an earlier peer to peer network. In Skype's case, the network is used to send audio and video. In Kazaa's case the network was used to send "files". If I recall correctly the article said eBay planned to use the Skype network to…

Microsoft owns Skype, not eBay. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype_Technologies

Read the wiki you cited. Before MS, eBay owned Skype and that's the transaction he's referring to.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#92
post #25
post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

In my world view (also OpenBazaar developer) I think OpenBazaar shouldn't make false promises on delivering anonymity, not even Bitcoin can do that.

I believe that OpenBazaar's initial motive was to distance itself from DarkMarkets as the opportunity to directly link people worldwide for trade without intermediaries, or barriers of entry to the market outweight the needs of those looking to trade anonymously.

I foresee market forces killing off the sellers that prefer to remain anonymous and misterious unless they're selling special items.

In practice I believe people will be less scared to transact with someone who has an identity, who can be accountable. Honor and trust are necessary for all kinds of commerce.

If it were up to me, I'd build OpenBazaar to work flawlessly on the OpenInternet, if anybody needs to use the technology in a different way the code is open and I'm sure they'll find a way to try to hide themselves, but I think it's a fool's errand, no amount of Tor will hide you from the authorities if they want to get you.

I think the size of illegal markets as big as they can be are minuscule compared to the new era of trade I envision, never in our history we have been able to directly trade with anybody else out there. Centralized ecommerce outfits like ebay and amazon have only given us a glimpse of what's possible, but as good as they are, they can't scale to 100% of the planet, I believe a great p2p solution can do this and the consequences of this will be of historic importance.

This slide stack will give you the bigger picture OpenBazaar should be going after http://www.slideshare.net/yiibu/the-emerging-global-web

Worrying ourselves with pleasing users that want to be on Tor, at this point in time, I believe is a waste of time that draws the wrong kind of attention to the project. There's a much bigger opportunity to be seized, a truly world changing one.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#93
post #53
post #17

I see several comments questioning the legitimate value of a peer-to-peer marketplace. Some cannot see any use other than illegal commerce (drugs, porn, etc). It is true that such illicit trades will take advantage of that network but is it really impossible to envision legal business as the major activity? Yes, cars can be used as getaway vehicles from bank robberies and also smash terrorist bombs into government bu…

While there are absolutely benefit of a system like this for legal sales, the problem is most sellers of legal goods have many existing outlets that they can use. While they might not like the fees, most accept them as the cost of doing business. Since there are few organized marketplaces online for illegal goods, the first adopters (as with Silk Road) will most likely be the black market, which will likely stigmatiz…

I think the problem for "legal" users of distributed markets is not stigma; it's cost, ease of use, and likelihood of fraud or other problems with transactions. If a distributed market arose that was inexpensive, as easy to use as eBay, and not significantly more affected by fraud, I think it could be adopted by "legal" users.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#94
post #24

Hey HN, this is Sam Patterson, operations lead on OpenBazaar. Please note that this open source project is about 6 months old, and not production ready. It has just started integrating Tor, but should not be considered private or secure yet. We welcome testers, we are about to release 0.3.0 sometime in the next few days. Our Github is here: https://github.com/openbazaar/openbazaar We've gotten a lot of attention from…

I think you should reconsider integration of Tor. This is quite likely to end badly for you. If the police reports are true SR2 had 150,000 users: if even a fraction of those decide to migrate to OpenBazaar at some point, any legitimate usage will likely be overwhelmed by illegal usage. That would put you in the unenviable position of being the next DPR, except not anonymous (Silk Road sold books as well as drugs but…

DPR and the SR2.0 guy profited from illegal transactions. That wouldn't be the case here. No different in my view from the developers of bittorrent or tor itself.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#95
post #50

Keep in mind, a lot of people are hyping OpenBazaar more than it deserves or is helpful. The basic question about OB no one has answered is: assuming they get it up and running and with a good security model, why will the mass of black-market - or legal - users ever use it, when using Amazon or something is easier and more familiar? You may say that they'll use it so they don't have to worry about police, except blac…

It seems to me that what OpenBazaar is trying to do is to use software and the network to create a truly voluntary marketplace that offers many or most of the structural benefits that we get from centralized marketplaces but without the regulations and risks imposed by those who control such marketplaces. It is very much like what bitcoin does for currency, but applied to a different subject.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#96
post #89
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

> Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels? Yes. When I sell towels, I put my business reputation on the line. Not my personal one. The customers don't know my real name. Tell me this. When was the last time you knew the full name of a store clerk you interacted with? The name tag might say "Sally", but is it really "Sally"? Or is it "Sally Smith" or "Sally Jones" ? You don't know, and you don't care. All you k…

You don't currently need to reveal your identity to customers when doing business online, but complete anonymity is something else altogether.

I might not know the full name and address of the store clerk, but his employer certainly does. That clerk is representing his business and should be held accountable to business for anything he does. If I have I bad experience purchasing from that store, it doesn't matter to me that it was a bad clerk - it's Local Towel Sales, Inc. that's not going to get my business in the future.

I also as a customer don't need to know that "Sally Smith" owns the corner store, but the owner of the lot that she's renting out for her storefront certainly does. If she's running her business in such a way that it affects the value of the property or will result in legal action, she needs to be held accountable to someone.

It works exactly the same online. When I buy a product that Online Towel Sales, Inc. posted to eBay, I don't care about who posted the product online or packed it up and shipped it, I only care that it came from Online Towel Sales, Inc. and will choose whether or not to do business again with them based on that experience. Likewise, if the owner of Online Towel Sales is using eBay to peddle illegal counterfeit towels or something, eBay needs to know who to hold accountable because they have a vested interest in not having their website associated with illegal activity. I'm not going to come back to eBay if it gets a reputation for being a criminal safehaven.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenBazaar developer here. This is the "nothing to hide" argument that we've seen used to much by the NSA and governments. The answer is that we believe people simply have the right to privacy in trade. Here's a discussion by the OpenBazaar team on the matter: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/OpenBazaar/issues/189 Do you want your credit card company to know exactly where you've shopped for the past two years? Would you…

> Please, I invite you to post your credit card records for the past year here. We'll be happy to look over them and leave some comments for you. After all, you've got nothing to hide, yes? That's a ridiculous counter argument. If I buy a bunch of towels/etc. from an online merchant, I have every reason to believe they will not use any information they gather to publicly embarrass me or otherwise do me ill will. Thei…

> The argument is never "I've got nothing to hide", the argument is that I have no reason to hide my Amazon purchases from Amazon.

The argument most definitely is "you've got nothing to hide." This argument is bandied about a lot. With some sort of idea that your entire life should be laid bare before the whims of law enforcement/signals intelligence agencies. The idea always comes with the assumptions that:

- If you want to hide something from others is means that you must be guilty of some sort of crime, and deserve to be punished.

- All employees of said law enforcement/signals intelligences agencies are will never abuse their power for any reason, and if they do it's probably for a "good reason" (e.g. see Supreme Court Justice Scala(?) arguing law based on "Jack Bauer" scenarios).

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh yeah? you have a repo I can check out?

Uhm no. Wasn't that the entire point of my comment?

I read it more along the lines of "some folks and I have come up with a reasonable solution, but it's nowhere near production ready so no one would want to test it."

My bad

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#99
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a distributed marketplace intended for legal trade need to run on Tor? Do you need anonymity if you're selling towels?

OpenBazaar developer here. This is the "nothing to hide" argument that we've seen used to much by the NSA and governments. The answer is that we believe people simply have the right to privacy in trade. Here's a discussion by the OpenBazaar team on the matter: https://github.com/OpenBazaar/OpenBazaar/issues/189 Do you want your credit card company to know exactly where you've shopped for the past two years? Would you…

You put forth very good examples of legal transactions that most people would prefer remain private.

I think the DETAILS of all your transaction history have to be private.

I also think privacy is not a synonym for anonymity.

As long as the record of transactions remains secure and private, I can still be me and transact, and use my identity to my advantage in terms of creating trust.

I'd add to your sentence: "People need privacy and trust in trade to be free."

"Only a sense of honor can lead to commerce. Any commerce." -Taleb

It's easy to see that those with non-anonymous identities will be able to build trust way faster than those with anonymous-identities.

Anonymity can only protect you from being related to parties that would tarnish your reputation or put you in a undesirable, perhaps even dangerous situation.

I think in the scale of possibilities we're trying to create, privacy and identity will be more valuable for the majority of trade on the network, anonymity will serve a very small percentage which I know is going to be taken care of to some extent by developers such as yourself, however, I think we can't ever promise anonymity as a feature, unless there's integration with a cryptocurrency that can somehow promise this, along with other layers of anonymity protection.

Re: OpenBazaar is a decentralized Dark Net market that's 'untouchable' by police

#100
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please, I invite you to post your credit card records for the past year here. We'll be happy to look over them and leave some comments for you. After all, you've got nothing to hide, yes? That's a ridiculous counter argument. If I buy a bunch of towels/etc. from an online merchant, I have every reason to believe they will not use any information they gather to publicly embarrass me or otherwise do me ill will. Thei…

> The argument is never "I've got nothing to hide", the argument is that I have no reason to hide my Amazon purchases from Amazon. The argument most definitely is "you've got nothing to hide." This argument is bandied about a lot. With some sort of idea that your entire life should be laid bare before the whims of law enforcement/signals intelligence agencies. The idea always comes with the assumptions that: - If you…

I'm going to take a karma hit for this one, I think...

Well, the conversation has apparently gone from asking why someone needs total anonymity when conducting completely legal activity online to protecting oneself from signals intelligence agencies. I have a vested interest in protecting my sensitive information online from identity thieves, scammers, people who would want to rob or injure me and people making arguments like the one I responded to who would likely use my information to embarrass me in an attempt to make a point about having "nothing to hide." When I have a credible reason to add the cops or the NSA to the list, I'll start taking measures to hide my perfectly legal activity from them as well.

The reason I don't fear them isn't because I believe they're infallible, free from abuse, etc. - the reason is that I'm significantly more likely to be assaulted by one of the hundreds of people that walk past me on the way to work than targeted by a rogue NSA agent trying to collect my online activity, and yet I can still walk down the street without being scared of everyone around me.

In the mean time, I know that if the NSA or FBI wants to target me they need a court order, and if I'm going to be arrested and tried in court the cops need evidence of illegal activity to convict me. When I see credible evidence that this is not the case, I'll take steps to protect myself from them. Despite more than a year of Snowden revelations, however, Greenwald and friends have yet to show evidence of a single American being thrown in jail because of the vast, Orwellian surveillance state that has supposedly developed around us.

If it was happening, that would have been the first thing they reported a year ago. The fact that they have yet to come up with anything tells me that in that giant trove of the NSA's deepest secrets, there is nothing to indicate any harassing or incarceration of regular citizens.

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