The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming • Hacker News Board

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#91

Post by justcommenting » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:09 PM UTC

bendyorke wrote: post #87

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

My perspective is this: Mozilla (to my knowledge) isn't getting rid of the developer tools in the standard Firefox. Those will still be there for people who want to get into development, and while their features will seem comparatively limited, thats actually a good thing. They're getting access to a concise set of tools that isn't overwhelming, and the same set of tools that millions of people use for development ev…

Makes sense--I just think it may be slightly easier to get users to become developers with a default of everyone having the same easy access to the best tools.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#92

Post by justcommenting » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:12 PM UTC

Link- wrote: post #89

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

I see no harm in a browser dedicated for developers, best serving the web development purposes just as much as I don't see any harm with building mobile and desktop applications using IDEs and Simulators and then releasing them to the numerous platforms. I believe this separation will lead to the possible introduction of many cutting edge implementations on the browser/engines level(s), for experimentation, before a…

I wonder if resources related to debugging tools are responsible for using lots of users' system resources; if that's the case, it could probably be addressed in other ways.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#93

Post by ianbicking » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:14 PM UTC

blackoil wrote: post #49

I would like a strict mode in js and rendering engine, which shows syntax error like a compiler instead of eating them and failing later at random places. Ffat fingers and typos take disproportionate time while development.

When developing Firefox Addons they have logging that is kind of like what you describe – doesn't break running but problematic code, but does complain. I found the result unusable. Normal development involves using libraries like jQuery, Google Analytics, or whatever other framework that sometimes acts weird, or makes seemingly odd choices for compatibility reasons, or has code that is effectively dead for everyone but IE6 but does get loaded. And since I didn't write jQuery or whatever other library, I don't care about those warnings.

It could be useful if there was a way of indicating what scripts are actually under development, and therefore only complaining about things the developer can fix.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#94

Post by justcommenting » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

Taek wrote: post #74

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

The world that developers and users live in is quite different. And a lot of people won't think of it as 'ScaryFox', but rather as 'CoolFox' which has all of these interesting and advanced-use buttons and knobs that let you see the plumbing of the web page you are using. Developers want a lot of stuff in their face that the average user doesn't want to deal with. I can see the value of having a 'switch to development…

These are good points, too, but what I was getting at is...wouldn't Mozilla be fulfilling its mission even more if the way it designed and released tools helped to bring the worlds of users and developers closer?

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#95

Post by kisielk » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:19 PM UTC

justcommenting wrote: post #84

callahad wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I see condescension here. Everyone does deserve access to built-in, high-quality tools. And everyone already gets that, with all major browsers. No one is taking away the built in developer tools in Firefox, Chrome, IE, Safari, or Opera. The problem is that they're always just a little bit older than the tip of the current development branch. And that's fine for folks who are starting to teach themselves…

The announcement promises 'Soon, we’re going to bring you more, a lot more, in a package that you deserve as a builder for an independent Web.' My argument is basically that users deserve these things, too. With huge respect for the work that you and Mozilla have been doing in this and other areas, I can understand that there are practical reasons why this may make sense for Mozilla (and even developers) internally.…

What's the problem? The users can just download the same browser if they're really interested in the additional functionality.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#96

Post by cromwellian » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

Yoric wrote: post #59

panzi wrote: post #52

Sounds cool. Shame that Mozilla's developer tools are in some respects that are important to me still inferior to Chrome.

How so? I'm asking because two Firefox devtools people sit in my office, so if you have feedback, I can forward it.

* Handles large scripts very slow (try loading up 4-6M of script) * Issue mentioned of dealing with alternative script loaders * WebWorker debugging * SourceMap support seems brittle * Profiling tools (compared to Chrome)

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#97

Post by drew_r » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

No. Because specialization.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#98

Post by cromwellian » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:26 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #35

cageface wrote: post #33

At Mozilla we know that developers are the cornerstone of the Web, that’s why we actively push standards and continue to build great tools to make it easier for you to create awesome Web content and apps. Like canning WebSQL for spurious reasons and forcing people to use a half-baked spec like IndexedDB instead? As much as I applaud most of what Mozilla has done to further the interests of the open web it's hard to f…

It's hardly grandstanding when it's the standard everyone agreed on. I agree that IndexedDB is awful and WebSQL was much better, but go shout at the W3C, not Mozilla.

The filesystem API was also nixed, so now people take to implementing fake filesystems on IndexDB, and implementing fake-SQL on top of IndexDB. On top of that, IndexDB performance isn't as great as it should be.

With something like SQLite, I think it's fine to take a super mature platform and retroactively extract a specification from it (while 99% of the people just keep the original implementation), than to start with a crap spec and try to make it mature.

IndexDB set the state of offline storage back, meanwhile Android and iOS developers are using SQLite or equivalents.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#99

Post by jgwest » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:28 PM UTC

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

No, debugging web apps is inherently different from using them. Kudos to Mozilla for this one!

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#100

Post by callahad » Mon, Nov 03, 2014, 5:29 PM UTC

justcommenting wrote: post #84

callahad wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I see condescension here. Everyone does deserve access to built-in, high-quality tools. And everyone already gets that, with all major browsers. No one is taking away the built in developer tools in Firefox, Chrome, IE, Safari, or Opera. The problem is that they're always just a little bit older than the tip of the current development branch. And that's fine for folks who are starting to teach themselves…

The announcement promises 'Soon, we’re going to bring you more, a lot more, in a package that you deserve as a builder for an independent Web.' My argument is basically that users deserve these things, too. With huge respect for the work that you and Mozilla have been doing in this and other areas, I can understand that there are practical reasons why this may make sense for Mozilla (and even developers) internally.…

Thank you for following up. I'm just getting up to speed on what the devtools team has been working on, and it should meet with your approval when it's released.

The other-ing language is unfortunate, but is hopefully tempered by Mozilla's work to ensure that everyone can be a developer. Things like Webmaker, the Web Literacy Standard, Summer Code Parties, the Mozilla Science Lab, etc. Mozilla and Mozillians are pouring an enormous amount of effort into building digital skills and literacy every day. We want to help people understand that the Web is a medium that they can create.

Without spoiling the announcement, I suspect it will be more agreeable than it might appear from this press release. :)