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Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

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Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#91

Seems like two people come into this experience and walk away with completely different expectations. One group are people, for whom camera phones have been their only "camera" and they are amazed at how great the pictures are now. The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset make…

> "The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset makers are allowed to actually call these things 'cameras' in their advertisements." This demographic can be safely ignored. The people who get the most up in arms about the "purity" of photographic tools are also the ones producing…

Interestingly, he seems to use multiple cameras. For example, the alley shot as taken with a Lumix GF1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sasurau/3944365957/ - personally I find the feeling of the Lumix one far more emotive in this case.

I totally agree that it's not the price of your equipment though, it's what you do with it - most of the time. Photography has a great many reasons to occur and there are aspects which most definitely benefit from higher quality equipment. For example, nature macro photography (some beautiful examples from the same photographer above: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sasurau/sets/72157631002090680... ). I guess the more you are looking for "The Decisive Moment", the less raw quality matters. Although, again, something like studio photography is likely to be a balance of quality and decisive moments.

Ultimately, unless you're getting most of your income from the photographs, just make sure however you're doing it you're having fun and enjoying it :)

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#92

Seems like two people come into this experience and walk away with completely different expectations. One group are people, for whom camera phones have been their only "camera" and they are amazed at how great the pictures are now. The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset make…

why would there be? they are content already. I think it's dangerous to bucket people in this way, i know plenty of people with $30k+ gear and use their iPhone most of the time. Those two categories you have are not mutually exclusive.

Autofocus in the iPhone is much faster than the majority of Canon (or Nikon) DSLRs, regardless of the number of focus points. Partly because it's a lot easier to focus a lens that has nearly infinite depth of field! Most photographers are also gear heads, which is another dangerous thing to say, just like saying (quite correctly) that most serial killers are keen photographers. which true, it doesn't necessarily add much to the conversation.

why we have this obsession with resolution is largely because of computers. In the "old days" I would make contact sheets and then prints, mainly 8x8" (from a Hasselblad, pre instagram-square-hipness), and they would (and do) look stunning, to use object oriented speak, a fiber print IS-A photograph, where as a digital print HAS-A photograph on the paper surface. They are different, when silver crystals are in (vs on) the medium it becomes something altogether different. In these modern enlightened times we put a photo up on a retina big screen and stare at it from 2' and of course we're going to see imperfections, this creates a cycle of obsession with sharpness. But of course it doesn't matter, would a painting be any better if it was created with a smaller brush? This is all a very classical philosophical debate, it's the medium is the message all over again.

From my perspective this work is impressive, does it make better photos? No, but it does make the photos more representative of what the taker was looking at. Over time we are subtracting the technology component from photography, eventually we will have the ability to record easily any visual experience we have. For me this comes from having enough experience in using equipment and eeking the most out of it, but in contrast my daughter is frustrated by cameras (both her Canon DSLR and her iPhone), she will see something like the solar eclipse and wonder why simply pointing the camera at it won't bring about a photo that looks the same as the one that the Mt Hamilton took on their 36" reflecting telescope, or why a photo at her friends candle lit birthday party didn't look how she remembered it. Her generation will grow up with sufficiently advanced technology that a lot of the inconvenience of photography's technical side has been automated. Just as I grew up in a time when emulsions were capable of exposing in a few hundredth's of a second rather than minutes.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#93

I've been messing around with the Google Camera app and the new Camera API provided by Android 5. It turns out that you can actually obtain a lot higher quality images by using the DNG (digital negative) of the photo, instead of using the JPEG. By "HDRing" images yourself, you can actually outperform Google Camera's HDR+ functionality. Here's the JPEG, non HDR+ shot on a Nexus 5: http://i.imgur.com/So44muL.jpg Here's…

I didn't know it was possible to save real DNGs on Android (as opposed to JPEGs inside DNGs). I've been waiting for years to be able to shoot RAW on a phone camera. Do you mind posting a DNG file of this photo? I might switch from iOS if Apple doesn't provide this functionality soon enough.

Sure! I would _not_ advise getting the Nexus 5. As noted below in other comments, the image quality and autofocusing speed has much to be desired. The Camera2 API that supports DNG is only available on Android 5.0 phones.

http://edward.io/raw_nexus_5.zip

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#94

Seems like two people come into this experience and walk away with completely different expectations. One group are people, for whom camera phones have been their only "camera" and they are amazed at how great the pictures are now. The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset make…

> "The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset makers are allowed to actually call these things 'cameras' in their advertisements." This demographic can be safely ignored. The people who get the most up in arms about the "purity" of photographic tools are also the ones producing…

Bullshit.

Features like megapixels, 51 phase detection AF points, face detection metering and other goodies all allow real people to capture better, more memorable images than cell phone cameras.

1. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/8594571664/in/set-721... could not have been captured with a cell phone camera. I was holding my DSLR in my offhand and pushing him on the swing with my other hand.

2. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/9326415006/in/set-721... could not have been captured with a cell phone either. My wife was holding him and he was peeking out over her shoulder then switching to the other shoulder immediately when I brought the camera up. With a cell phone's shutter lag, he'd have been on the other side before the picture was taken.

3. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/8582319362/in/set-721... no cell phone camera in the world could have captured this in such low light so successfully.

4. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/9012492563/in/set-721... there are a hundred fleeting moments a day like this, and no cell phone in the world is fast enough to capture them.

It's easy to take a picture of an abandoned alley or cats lying on blacktop with a cellphone camera. Try doing that with a newborn's first smile, or a mischievous preschooler's momentary smirk.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#95

I've been messing around with the Google Camera app and the new Camera API provided by Android 5. It turns out that you can actually obtain a lot higher quality images by using the DNG (digital negative) of the photo, instead of using the JPEG. By "HDRing" images yourself, you can actually outperform Google Camera's HDR+ functionality. Here's the JPEG, non HDR+ shot on a Nexus 5: http://i.imgur.com/So44muL.jpg Here's…

Wow thats quite interesting, i think ill try that this weekend, see if i can setup an automated solution too if i can get it working smoothly.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset makers are allowed to actually call these things 'cameras' in their advertisements." This demographic can be safely ignored. The people who get the most up in arms about the "purity" of photographic tools are also the ones producing…

Bullshit. Features like megapixels, 51 phase detection AF points, face detection metering and other goodies all allow real people to capture better, more memorable images than cell phone cameras. 1. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/8594571664/in/set-721... could not have been captured with a cell phone camera. I was holding my DSLR in my offhand and pushing him on the swing with my other hand. 2. https://www.fl…

I think you are right, particularly since your focus is (at least partly) on capturing your kid for posterity rather than making impressionistic or abstract work.

There is, however, a marked tendency in photography to obsess about the technical. In the recent series of books "100 ideas that changed..." that also covers fields like art, graphic design, fashion, architecture and film, the photography book ("100 ideas that changed photography") is notable for its focus on technical developments. The other creative fields have their idiosyncrasies, and each book has a different editor, so this is hardly a well-designed study, but photography stands out as the most concerned with the purely technical. That seems to be just the way it is.

Nobody would suggest that wobbliness or "looking like its about to fall down" are good ideas for architecture, but for some reason people coming from the art world like the idea of messing with photography's technical perfection. Maybe it's a personality thing.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The other group are people who argue the details of a phase detection autofocus in the Canon DSLR and the 51 point field autofocus of the Nikon DSLR and can't believe that the handset makers are allowed to actually call these things 'cameras' in their advertisements." This demographic can be safely ignored. The people who get the most up in arms about the "purity" of photographic tools are also the ones producing…

Bullshit. Features like megapixels, 51 phase detection AF points, face detection metering and other goodies all allow real people to capture better, more memorable images than cell phone cameras. 1. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/8594571664/in/set-721... could not have been captured with a cell phone camera. I was holding my DSLR in my offhand and pushing him on the swing with my other hand. 2. https://www.fl…

Way to miss the point, which wasn't "a cell phone can do everything as well as a DSLR", which is objectively false, but rather that "what makes a great image has very little to do with technical ability".

I was going to do a point-by-point rebuttal on how every picture you've brought up can be taken with a cell phone camera, but that seems a wee bit pointless.

Instead look at those photographs and tell me what exactly makes them worthwhile. Is it the creamy smooth bokeh? The pin-sharp focus? The incredible low-light performance?

Or is it the fact that it's your child? Is it the human element - capturing someone in a moment of happiness, of vulnerability, or of peace?

This is the whole point of my rant before - all of this talk about sharpness, noise levels, autofocus points, etc etc, does nothing for what's in your image, and in the end that's what counts most (and what most people are worst at). It's light, it's subject, it's composition. Everything else is details - a compact point'n'shoot wouldn't give as much depth of field in photo #1, but who cares? A cell phone camera would have had a tad more noise in photo #3... but who cares?

No one. Except fellow pixel-peepers who get off on technical perfectionism. None of your relatives will even begin to think "wow, look at the smooth tones even in the shadows!", nor will you after a few weeks. I'm willing to bet that in a year or two, when your son is more grown, and you come back to this photo, you will not even begin to think about the technical aspects of it. Photography is so much bigger, more powerful than this.

A good photograph is 95% subject, composition, and light, and 5% technical mastery. It's nice to nail the last 5% sure, but there is altogether way too much noise being made about the 5% to the deafening silence about the 95%.

I'm willing to bet that if you took two identical novice photographers and gave them each $1,000, one who spends it on classes and books, and the other who spends it on gear, that the gearhead will have shown the least improvement in actual images (by a wide, wide margin) than the one who spent it gaining knowledge. This scales too - I'm willing to bet the effect is even more pronounced if you gave them each $10,000 instead.

The bottleneck, as always, is not the gear. It's the person behind it.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#98

I've been messing around with the Google Camera app and the new Camera API provided by Android 5. It turns out that you can actually obtain a lot higher quality images by using the DNG (digital negative) of the photo, instead of using the JPEG. By "HDRing" images yourself, you can actually outperform Google Camera's HDR+ functionality. Here's the JPEG, non HDR+ shot on a Nexus 5: http://i.imgur.com/So44muL.jpg Here's…

Yes, raw files have quite the dynamic range and the current generation of raw processors can really pull a lot of detail out of the shadows and highlights.

The strange black dots you find in the shadows are noise. Simple no data to produce any results.

The key part to in camera HDR is, automatic. No manually fixing your camera to tripod, copying them onto computer and the loading into software capable of HDR and finally manually processing them.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. Features like megapixels, 51 phase detection AF points, face detection metering and other goodies all allow real people to capture better, more memorable images than cell phone cameras. 1. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/8594571664/in/set-721... could not have been captured with a cell phone camera. I was holding my DSLR in my offhand and pushing him on the swing with my other hand. 2. https://www.fl…

Way to miss the point, which wasn't "a cell phone can do everything as well as a DSLR", which is objectively false, but rather that "what makes a great image has very little to do with technical ability". I was going to do a point-by-point rebuttal on how every picture you've brought up can be taken with a cell phone camera, but that seems a wee bit pointless. Instead look at those photographs and tell me what exactl…

No, I didn't miss the point. Your point is wrong. You even (unwittingly) argue against it in another post of yours. Cartier-Bresson's "Man Leaping" could not have been captured with a cell phone camera. The shutter lag is just too bad. As another poster pointed out, "Tank Man" was taken from a half mile away.

> Instead look at those photographs and tell me what exactly makes them worthwhile. Is it the creamy smooth bokeh? The pin-sharp focus? The incredible low-light performance?

It's all of the above. When you remember events, you're not actually remembering the event itself: you're remembering the last time you remembered the event. The creamy smooth bokeh, the pin-sharp focus, etc. help me remember these events with more clarity and appreciation than I could otherwise. Every time you make the claim that technical quality doesn't matter, you're ignoring very fundamental cognitive science to the contrary.

You're claiming that "it's light, it's subject, it's composition", and while these are necessary conditions to capture good pictures, for millions upon millions of historic and sentimental potential pictures, they're not sufficient: better equipment leads to many, many better pictures than cell phones can provide.

Re: Low Light and High Dynamic Range photography in the Google Camera App

#100

One should remember that writing camera software that is agnostic to the hardware is technically hard, and nearly impossible if you want gorgeous photos (a la iPhone). When taking astronomy images we would characterize the CCD (mostly for noise) each night, and you need that kind of approach to tune your software to your hardware.

Considering the many advantages to shooting in RAW, it is safe to assume that all one-size-fits-all software processing (a la iPhone) are vastly inferior to performing the image processing manually (with the data directly off the censor, uncompressed, and unaltered)
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