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Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

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Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#91

Post by collyw »

coldcode wrote: post #21
Wintamute wrote: post #19

I'd say it's an interplay between the following issues, 1 - Writing code is a young man's game. Older devs get one too many platform/language iterations behind the curve so can't apply for as many jobs - obviously not true for everyone, but could account for something 2 - Older devs are tempted into management, and so write emails for a living instead of code 3 - Older devs may have more commitments outside of work,…

A young man's opinion :-) Speaking as someone with 33 years experience writing code at a high level, I have lost nothing over the years except the attitude that only young people can code. What matters is desire to learn and keep ahead of the curve, and continued enjoyment of writing code. I've seen people lose that at every age group.

Young people usually write crap code in my 11 years experience. (Not all of them but probably the majority of them).

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#92

Post by ThomaszKrueger »

I'm 53 with an EE degree, went to programming because it so happened that there was a telecommunications research center close by the school. And programming looked cooler and easier than EE.

I compare programming to writing, more than engineering. There is no engineering in programming. No matter how many "methodologies" are created, writing good programs and good systems is akin to writing a good story or a good book. It takes practice, it takes courage to remove instead of adding, to make it as simple as possible. The best programmers are Hemingways to me. Terse, to the point. It just works. It looks beautiful.

In the same vein, a writer doesn't usually become a manager. He keeps on writing, until old age, until forever. That's what we do, what we like to do. Sometimes one becomes a manager due to money pressures - after all who's going to pay a programmer the same as a GM or VP. But people like myself secretly or not see themselves programming until the bitter end.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#93

Post by goatforce5 »

exelius wrote: post #49
alistairSH wrote: post #33

37 years old, studied computer science at university, and have worked in the software industry since graduation. Currently at a mid-size/large, multinational software company. We have a large number of developers with 20+ years experience. You aren't seeing their resumes because they're here and don't have a reason to leave. I've been here 12 years now, and if you can't match the 25 days vacation, 10 sick, 12 holiday…

Haha, I see this a lot. Banks who pay mediocre developers $150k a year plus crazy benefits to write entry-level reports because fuck it; the salary for the entire IT department is a rounding error on the bonus pool for the traders so who gives a shit? Good luck getting those guys out of a job like that. Not saying you're mediocre; but a job like that leads to mediocrity and complacency because the work is often uncha…

FWIW I know someone who used to work in IT for a bank whose yearly bonus was bigger than my (decent) wage as a programmer at a startup during the Dotcom 1.0 boom. I guess they had to trickle-down some bonuses to the IT guys so they didn't get jealous when the traders were getting their 6 or 7 figure bonuses at the end of the year.

He worked in networking. I guess it was one of the largest private networks in the world, and they had a big budget and got to use tons of interesting gear (make it fast! make it secure!). I don't think his department was mediocre in any way and was probably a rewarding job (providing you can get over the working for an evil corporate kinda thing).

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#94

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #79
chii wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am". "...but i want more pay - how about CEO level pay?" "nope."

CEO's and managers get a lot of shit on HN, but there is a reason they make more money (in general, obviously there are exceptions, especially at tech companies). The main reason is that what they do is more valuable. At most companies the coding required is easy and doesn't require much thought, low-skill = low-pay. The job of allocating capital and people to the highest ROI areas is much more significant to most co…

"The main reason is that what they do is more valuable."

Personally I would have said a big part of it is that they control payroll.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#95

Post by ryandrake »

alistairSH wrote: post #47
chii wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am". "...but i want more pay - how about CEO level pay?" "nope."

I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer.…

Come on.. Maybe you've seen developers at Google or somewhere like that make LameFailingCompanyCEO-level pay, but I highly doubt that "top-notch" developers anywhere earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay IN THE SAME COMPANY. Everywhere I've worked there has been a huge compensation cliff between the senior managers (anyone with the C?O title or their direct reports) and the rest of the peasants. I'm talking orders of magnitude difference. Sure, there are outliers, but I'd guess the typical tech workplace (lets say Bay Area cost of living) is structured, on average:

Junior developers: $75k-100k + $2-3k equity/bonus

Senior developers: $90k-140k + $4-8k equity/bonus

Engineering manager: $120-160k + $10-15k equity/bonus

Director or Super-smart architect: $140k-$180k + $15k-20k equity/bonus

VP (senior manager): $250k-350k + $200k-1MM equity/bonus

CxO: $300k-$1MM + $5MM-50MM equity/bonus

So when you say "Mary in the cubicle next to me makes more than me," you're probably talking about at most a $50k difference, which is a rounding error for the senior execs. You'll be hard pressed to find a non-senior exec in any line of work (engineering, QA, project management, mid-level management) whose compensation even comes close to what the big shots are making.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#96

Post by etrevino »

mattfrommars wrote: post #73
exelius wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, I see this a lot. Banks who pay mediocre developers $150k a year plus crazy benefits to write entry-level reports because fuck it; the salary for the entire IT department is a rounding error on the bonus pool for the traders so who gives a shit? Good luck getting those guys out of a job like that. Not saying you're mediocre; but a job like that leads to mediocrity and complacency because the work is often uncha…

Any tips on getting those entry level reporting job at banks who pay 150,000 USD? I'm 23 so I'm willing to leearn.

The programmers aren't entry level, but the work they're doing is entry level (in difficulty and maybe in quality). I've worked for a bank before and the environment (for this level of work) is stultifying. I just fell into the work, though, and I left after a couple of years. I wouldn't know where to seek it out.

HOWEVER, I can give you a little bit of advice on what skills might be a little bit useful. You want to learn to create reports/data portals for something like Oracle Business Intelligence Suite, SAP's Business Objects, or IBM's Cognos.

Bank of America used to use Oracle's solutions, but as I understand it they're moving over to Business Objects. For the rest, I can't say, but there are a lot of companies that want these skills.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#97

Post by kuni-toko-tachi »

exelius wrote: post #65
kuni-toko-tachi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this 100%. Good engineers are problem solvers, and as you grow older, you gain the wisdom that relative to the value that you bring to a business, the compensation will never match. It's unfortunate when you see younger software engineers who are incredibly smart technically and dedicated, but don't apply those same problem solving skills to their career. They become exploitable, and wind up making other…

Exactly. Once you get older, you start to realize that there are business frameworks that work just like software frameworks! An MBA and a CS degree are a powerful combination. In fact, if there were more engineers with MBAs, I doubt the MBA would have a reputation for being somewhat clueless about practical matters.

Describing jobs as for a "Javascript Ninja" and offering perks like free Mountain Dew illustrate a distinct targeting of younger people, and are obvious ploys to trade trinkets to engineers in exchange for their work which generates actual value which is skimmed out of their pockets.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#99

Post by s1300045 »

zeratul wrote: post #45
edw519 wrote: post #23

59, programming for 42 years, the last 35 professionally. Here on HN for 7.5 years. I've always been very busy (one of the main reasons I don't post on HN as much any more). I don't have a resume. I'm not on LinkedIn. If I ever ran low on work, it would probably take me a day or two and a few phone calls to find something. I don't work on anything unless I find it incredibly compelling. I write applications. I've see…

I think no one is like Ed. There maybe be 25% of programmers that have a long standing experience, even with the new tools, but they don't share wisdom like Ed does. Ed why can't you have your own company? Why can't you be the one who is hiring or at least teach others how to hire. I bet you can smell a talent from 1000 miles away - even if someone did not finish a good school; the world of software engineering would…

I think it's interesting people would assume so. Good programmers don't always make good managers. Or business owner. The same reason why not every good carpenter runs a business and manages a team of people. Highly skilled experts are probably disciplined enough to freelance or work as a contractor. But the skills necessary to grow an enterprise are often a very different set of experiences outside of what they do for a living.

Or they simply aren't interested. They are happy with what they do.

On the other hand, seasoned programmers do make great interviewers. And a good interview often include them in the process. Their insights are very valuable.

Also as a sidenote, if there is no senior/lead developer during your interview process. Or the people do not appear to have a clue. Run. Unless they are going to hire your as the senior/lead, and they admit they lack the knowledge.

Re: Career planning: Where do old devs go to?

#100

Post by eru »

mattfrommars wrote: post #75
alistairSH wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer.…

I did my mechanical engineering and having a pain in finding a job. I'm planning to get into programming. What do I need to do to become a decent developer who is in demand and can earn decent money?

It's easiest if you start hanging out with people who can program (and best of all, earn good money programming).

There's lots you can learn on your own. Just do some web searches. Pick a language, and start learning. Python is great for a beginners. (I like Haskell, but I'm weird.)

There are a bunch of auxiliary skills that help. Learn how to use irc (freenode is great), get familiar with github.

Drop me a line, if you need more help. My email address is in my profile.

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