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Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

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Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assertion is often put forth by naive Libertarian types, but it's simply not true. Cartels routinely emerge in markets with high barriers to entry. This happens even if there are laws against direct coordination and those laws are obeyed. The market players aren't dumb, and they realize that if the barrier to entry is high enough, they can maximize profits by simply not competing. Price wars are terrible things…

Even if I'm completely wrong and you're completely right, this level of discourse is simply not acceptable.

Oh give me a break, you thin-skinned jerk.

You're criticizing my tone because you were wrong on the facts. Pathetic. Disgusting and pathetic.

You should be ashamed of yourself. But you aren't, because you're fucking pathetic.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#92
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the problem of net neutrality has a pretty clear solution. You force companies to carry all traffic equally, give no special treatment, etc. It's not perfect, but it works. What's the solution to the problem of a lack of competition?

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopo…

>The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable.

I don't understand how it is unenforceable and unmeasurable. We already know certain ISPs do it today and we can test for it. I can test it at my own home by turning my VPN on and off. And the FCC can enforce it like it enforces everything else: fining. You might as well say we might as well allow everyone to use all wireless spectrum however they feel, because forcing them to use certain bands for certain types of information is "unenforceable and unmeasurable". Testing that is also hard, yet we still have rules and we still fine people for it.

>Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview.

First, it's a corporation, not "someone". Secondly, if you wish to do business in most civilized areas, there are certain rules you must abide by. A good example is "forcing" a company to not dump toxic waste in river. Some things are done for the common good of all, and one of the things governments are supposed to do is balance that with interests of the few. Just like how dumping waste in rivers is against the law, so too could the government force ISPs to be a common carrier.

>Stop government from interfering with the market.

Given the incredibly high cost of entry into this business, I'm curious why you think that without government interference, any company would be able to compete. If I were to start up my own local ISP today, I'd be faced with two choices: run my own fiber/copper or lease it from Comcast. Running my own cable is of course insanely expensive, and probably not a good investment. Meanwhile, without the government forcing Comcast to play nice, they would have no incentive to lease their cable to me at a decent price, or at all.

I totally agree that, in some cases, the government does things that enable anti-competitive behavior. Towns signing contracts with Comcast to be a sole-provider, or lobbyists helping draft laws that prevent municipal internet are some examples. However, completely removing any regulation and letting the already established conglomerates run amok is not going to get us any additional competition in this case.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#93
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopo…

Honest question: why should I care about your moral problem?

Because "force" means you're not willing to talk and argue your point. You are advocating that someone can pull a gun to other people's head and make them do what he wants, and this is unsustainable, detestable and immoral.

So you should care because I am advocating a philosophy that is cogent and supporting of a peaceful society, while what you are arguing is the opposite of that.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#94
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why should I care about your moral problem?

Because "force" means you're not willing to talk and argue your point. You are advocating that someone can pull a gun to other people's head and make them do what he wants, and this is unsustainable, detestable and immoral. So you should care because I am advocating a philosophy that is cogent and supporting of a peaceful society, while what you are arguing is the opposite of that.

The Libertarian conceit that theirs is the only moral way to govern, and all the rest of us are amoral scumbags, is a piss-poor way to make a point.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#95

I'm in the UK so our problems are a bit different e.g. the speed available for any service depends on the last mile; you can get a cable connection and pay for pointless services that you don't want as a package; you might win the Fibre to Cabinet post code lottery, or you stay on adsl over copper at around 2.4Mbits/sec; or you ditch the land line and pay for mobile. I wish the campaign well.

It isn't only the cable connection that comes with services you don't want; there's no ADSL or FTTC without a landline and the associated line rental.

True! And in the UK I have never seen 'internet only' landline either.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#96
post #71
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Almost all the existing cable infrastructure was built with private money. [citation needed] meanwhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_States#G... has a great list of numerous government programs and funds that have dispensed billions of dollars into network infrastructure in the US >I don't see why web businesses should be different than app businesses in this regard So you see the World Wide W…

> meanwhile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_States#G... . has a great list of numerous government programs and funds that have dispensed billions of dollars into network infrastructure in the US The only projects on that list that have distributed significant money are funded by the Universal Service Fund. That money doesn't come from general taxation, it comes from a specific tax on the telecom…

> Imagine if the government levied a 15% tax on smartphone sales and spent that money to subsidize telephones for the poor. Could you then turn around and say "Apple and Samsung are getting massive government subsidies?"

Not only can you say that, you should say that. The tax money is ending up in Apple's and Samsung's pockets, routed through poor people (who presumably benefit from the subsidy, of course, and thus putatively benefiting society as a whole as well).

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#97
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopo…

Honest question: why should I care about your moral problem?

[deleted]

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "force" means you're not willing to talk and argue your point. You are advocating that someone can pull a gun to other people's head and make them do what he wants, and this is unsustainable, detestable and immoral. So you should care because I am advocating a philosophy that is cogent and supporting of a peaceful society, while what you are arguing is the opposite of that.

The Libertarian conceit that theirs is the only moral way to govern, and all the rest of us are amoral scumbags, is a piss-poor way to make a point.

I'd like to point out that you have ascribed to me some sense of scorn towards others, and that you have insulted my approach to argumentation, but that that does not constitute a refutation and does not address the points I'm making.

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#99
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You force companies to carry all traffic equally That is not a solution, it is an intention. The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. Also, I have a moral problem with your willingness to "force" someone to do something because of your worldview. That kind of solution does not scale (you either think you could have a monopo…

>The solution is how do you go about "forcing" companies to carry all traffic equally. This is utterly unenforceable and unmeasurable. I don't understand how it is unenforceable and unmeasurable. We already know certain ISPs do it today and we can test for it. I can test it at my own home by turning my VPN on and off. And the FCC can enforce it like it enforces everything else: fining. You might as well say we might…

> I don't understand how it is unenforceable and unmeasurable. We already know certain ISPs do it today and we can test for it.

Awesome. Then put up a website with your reports and make your case to convince people to switch to better ISPs. Why do you need the Gun of the State to do that for you?

> And the FCC can enforce it like it enforces everything else: fining.

A fine is not a deterrent, it is a disincentive. A disincentive is combined with other forces that a corporation takes into account when choosing how to act. For instance, the FCC has a "ban" on cursing on TV, but you may still choose to do so and pay the fine. So it is not a deterrent. Not to mention it is condescending (and this has real implications in society, as it discourages people from thinking by themselves) that the FCC thinks they can decide for me what I should and shouldn't be exposed to.

> You might as well say we might as well allow everyone to use all wireless spectrum however they feel, because forcing them to use certain bands for certain types of information is "unenforceable and unmeasurable". Testing that is also hard, yet we still have rules and we still fine people for it.

And you think the only way to sensibly share the wireless spectrum is by giving the government a monopoly over the sky and letting them force people to use it in a certain way? First of all this is a terrible idea on moral grounds. There's no incentive for the government not to abuse this power in the form of censorship or cronyism by benefiting a broadcasting company that will provide funds for a presidential government and so on. So many bad scenarios derive from giving this monopoly to a gang with a license to kill (a few more: it discourages innovation, it raises the barrier to entry, it raises prices unnecessarily (money that would be otherwise usefully applied elsewhere), and it places communication in the hands of unregulated regulators). FCC was not always the way, and radio waves have not always been regulated, and people did just fine. Something else to blame Hoover for (he also thought, like you, that the government needs the FCC to "prevent interference" among users of these bands). I would apply the principle of homesteading to frequency bands as it seems to me (I haven't done much reading on this) to be the same problem as the allocation of land problem.

And arguing "yet we still have rules and we still fine people for it" does not address my points. This is just a status quo fact, not an argument.

> First, it's a corporation, not "someone". Secondly, if you wish to do business in most civilized areas, there are certain rules you must abide by. A good example is "forcing" a company to not dump toxic waste in river. Some things are done for the common good of all, and one of the things governments are supposed to do is balance that with interests of the few. Just like how dumping waste in rivers is against the law, so too could the government force ISPs to be a common carrier.

But the government you deem necessary has turned corporations into people, so it is someone, because a corporation can only lose as much money as it has in its coffers and the people hiding behind the government's license to incorporate cannot be held responsible for what "the corporation" does. So it is someone, unfortunately.

Then you make a fallacious status quo argument - "most areas have rules". So what? I'm arguing those rules are immoral and you're not addressing my point.

You're also mistaken if you think the only way to enforce non-pollution is through rules and fines. Again, those are disincentives, not deterrents. It works better if you create positive incentives not to pollute in the first place. This is a huge topic and I'm already over-extending myself, so I'll stop here.

I disagree with several of your premises: that governments are supposed to be concerned about the "common good" (whatever they decide is the most profitable definition thereof), that dumping waste in rivers should be illegal (who decides what "waste" is? how does fining after-the-fact help keep rivers clean? what is the incentive to keep clean something no one owns?). So I don't think you're making a strong case.

> Given the incredibly high cost of entry into this business

It is only high because the government skews the market by regulating it. There's demand for higher speed, lower priced internet than what the current monopolies offer. But you think this is an insurmountable problem that the entrepreneurs will never be able to solve? That's just it, we know for sure it's expensive to open up your own ISP, therefore let's make that illegal? I believe more in people and their ingenuity to come up with solutions to even problems that were once (or are now) deemed impossible, or as you put it, "insanely expensive".

Re: Etsy CEO to Businesses: If Net Neutrality Perishes, We Will Too

#100
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Libertarian conceit that theirs is the only moral way to govern, and all the rest of us are amoral scumbags, is a piss-poor way to make a point.

I'd like to point out that you have ascribed to me some sense of scorn towards others, and that you have insulted my approach to argumentation, but that that does not constitute a refutation and does not address the points I'm making .

You're right, I didn't. The main thing I wanted to know about your original post is why your morals are relevant to my opinions, and you didn't answer that, but just repeated the standard annoying Libertarian line that libertarianism is the only moral political philosophy.
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