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Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

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Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#91

Post by gshubert17 »

yarrel wrote: post #88
clarkmoody wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fantastic argument for strong states' rights and less-overbearing / centralized policy from Washington. Let the states be compared against one another and measure the results: if heroin abuse skyrockets in Vermont, then other states could avoid their policy mistakes. If something works incredibly well in a couple states, then it would be appropriate to implement broad, federal rules codifying the success in…

I thought states' rights was just a code phrase for racism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States'_rights#Controversy

Not in every case. In some cases [0] states' rights means a willingness to accept less centralized authority and more autonomy. A 1932 Supreme Court decision contained the phrase "laboratories of democracy" to describe how a "state may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratories_of_democracy

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#92

Post by Crito »

ap22213 wrote: post #60
awjr wrote: post #26

"War on drugs" is a terrible world affliction. Prohibition neither works nor is conducive to a better society. Governments should just tax and sell the drugs to the general public. Alcohol is considered to be the most harmful drug but is legal because it can be taxed, controlled, and makes money. ( http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus... ) Governments should also support people that want drugs…

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drink…

> I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking.

I've never seen somebody refuse the optional free pickle spear at the sandwich line at work.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#93

Post by coldtea »

Xylakant wrote: post #63
coldtea wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/... Oh, and they controlled for the obvious correlations too, like lifestyle differences etc.

oh sure, this is about moderate drinkers, not about people abusing alcohol as a drug. The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant as long as you use a pure, unadultered drug (let's forget about croc or battery acid etc). But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad: destroys liver and brain among other things, compared to e.g. opium wh…

>But once you get into heavy use, alcohol starts looking pretty bad

Well, you can die with heavy dose of water too. Actually not even that heavy, people have died drinking like 7-10 liters.

>The side effects of moderate use of pretty much every controlled substance are pretty much insignificant

Yeah, but the research shows moderate use of alcohol not only doesn't have bad effects (even if insignificant) but it even has significant (measurable) beneficial effects.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#94

Post by growler »

awildone wrote: post #37
Xylakant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, actually not. Alcohol is a potent poison and kills cells - hence the use as desinfectant. The physical damage caused by alcohol abuse rival and surpass most illegal substances.

And it get's worse. Because your not really tripping but rather fighting poisoning, it effectively cuts the connection to the better part of who you are. If it wasn't for alcohol, a lot of the trouble we see in society simply wouldn't exist.

I think there are a few examples of tripping being the result of poisoning. Mushrooms, various cacti...

The reason mescalin makes you puke is not because it does a body good.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#95

Post by emhart »

Most of my life we've had an outsized problem with heroin and other opiates in Vermont. Recently this has developed into an odd symbiotic relationship with New York State, where Heroin is exchanged for guns across the border.

I recently left the state, but only a year ago I was living in Saint Albans when a warrant sweep rounded up dozens of my neighbors, including one who had been moving thousands of grams of heroin monthly.

Throughout 2013 there were ongoing sweeps in 3 major counties, all focused on narcotics only. Dozens were arrested each time. We're a small state with a terrible economy. As glad as I am that Shumlin is taking this step (and he's made it clear for a while now that he's happy to ignore the political consequences of this action) this has been a very long time coming. I remember first hearing about the heroin problem in my state 20 years ago, when I was in middle school and there was a report of someone overdosing in a park adjacent to a summit on combating opiate addiction.

Vice did a good story on all of this last year: http://www.vice.com/read/the-brown-mountain-state

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#96

Post by tbrownaw »

codeshaman wrote: post #46
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ... But absolutely everything you say could apply to alcohol during say Prohibition. Look people taking the moonshine to be tested, people enjoying booze sensibly ... We have a legalised and fairly sane alcohol policy in most countries, we can hardly hope to have a better policy and set up for any other drug, and yet alcohol is still a devastating blight on many lives. Yes, stop this crazy war on drugs, but don't…

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse. Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many hav…

On the other extreme - countries which ban all kinds of drugs (including alcohol) are seeing strong religious domination, which leads to extremism and terrorism, so total prohibition of altered states of consciousness is also bad.

And here I thought the causality went the other way; that is that religions like to ban alternative (ie, non-religious) means of altering your state.

Silly me.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#97

Post by win_ini »

pionar wrote: post #50
codeshaman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have to disagree with you on alcohol. Alcohol is a very addictive and destructive substance and can cause personality changes which lead to aggression and domination (ego enhancer) and is very harmful to health if abused. A large chunk of problems in our society comes from alcohol abuse. Some of the substances which are generically called 'illegal drugs', however, are much safer and self-limiting and many hav…

> drugs which I'm familiar with and have studied extensively through literature and some self experimentation. Sorry, a sample size of one does not make a drug "safe". The fact is, there's no such thing as a safe drug, as everyone's body reacts differently to each one. > although none are as destructive as alcohol. Really? Are you really saying that heroin, which is one of the most addictive drugs in the world, is no…

> The difference being, nicotine's psychoactive effects are minor compared to hard drugs. People don't die from a nicotine overdose.

Correction- People have died from Nicotine - and with e-cigs there;s concern that it may become more common:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine_poisoning

"The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention warned in report released today that the number of phone calls to U.S. poison control centers related to e-cigarette use has increased from just one call per month on average in 2010 to nearly 200 calls per month in early 2014." http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2014/04/03/e-cigarette-po...

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#98

Post by brightsize »

johnchristopher wrote: post #8
kynikos wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a resident and commnications director/volunteer for a couple of campaigns, I've learned a Republican in Vermont is almost always like a Democrat in any other state.

Living in Europe, never having set a foot in the US, I take the bait: what is a Democrat like in Vermont then ?

I was told by a German, who had lived in the States for a few years in the past, that American Democrats resembled German conservatives. If that's the case it's hard to imagine what the German/European counterpart to a Republican would be.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#99

Post by tbrownaw »

Crito wrote: post #92
ap22213 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it quite so cynically. Alcohol is legal because there would be outrage or civil unrest if it was banned. Most people that I've met (who may not be considered alcoholics) certainly have some level of alcohol dependency. And, I'm being loose here with the word 'dependency', but in the last year, I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drink…

> I've never seen one of my friends or acquaintances refuse alcohol at a bar or restaurant, while others were drinking. I've never seen somebody refuse the optional free pickle spear at the sandwich line at work.

Just yesterday, I got an extra pickle spear from someone who didn't want theirs. :)

But yeah, social pressure != dependency.

Re: Vermont Quits War on Drugs to Treat Heroin Abuse as Health Issue

#100

Post by api »

josefresco wrote: post #64
codeshaman wrote: post #27

Just back from Boom Festival in Portugal, where personal drug use is decriminalized. There was almost no police/security at the gates or inside the festival, although selling drugs was not tolerated (eg. people selling on the festival grounds were kindly asked to leave). There were 42.000 people from 152 countries and most of them used some kind of substance or plant there (marijuana being the most abundantly and ope…

Running a a drug friendly "festival" and a state (as in the United States) are two completely different realities. I'm welcome your anecdotal evidence but don't find it at all relevant to the topic of how a state should handle the legal and health consequences of heroin abuse. A bunch of party-goers doing recreational drugs couldn't be farther from the realities of heroin addiction in a rural population.

I fail to see how ruining peoples' lives with criminal convictions, records, and incarceration helps anyone in any case. Addiction is a psychological and medical problem.

The real insult is that alcohol is legal. Heavy alcohol use results in severe addiction and physical harm comparable to chronic heroin and amphetamine abuse. Yet we treat alcoholism as a psychological and a medical problem (which it is), and do not further ruin the addict's life and worsen their problems with incarceration and persecution.

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