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Getting rid of burnout permanently

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Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#91

Post by praxulus »

oldmanjay wrote: post #85
greggman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I program because I love it. It's my hobby. I quit my job a 14 months ago. 5 months ago I thought of an idea I wanted to pursue. I've been spending 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week on it since then. I'm sorry you apparently picked a career you don't get real enjoyment from. Those of us that picked something we love don't see doing it a lot as a negative. We see it as just that, doing something we love.

You're getting voted down by people who assume that your experience can't possibly be real because it isn't their experience, but I feel the same as you. There are dozens of us!

I think the downvotes were triggered by this:

>I'm sorry you apparently picked a career you don't get real enjoyment from

Enjoying something for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, is definitely still "real enjoyment."

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#92

Post by noir_lord »

michaelgrafl wrote: post #83
noir_lord wrote: post #34

Fantastic Article. Three weeks ago I hit absolute rock bottom with exhaustion from working hard for the last 2 years (I worked out I've been working 70-80 hour weeks since Dev 2010 with 8 days off in 4 years). I resolved to get my life sorted out, I cut back work hours drastically, started riding my bike more and went to the Doctors to get help with sleeping tablets and pain management (the last 3 months I've been wa…

Good for you. One question though: did your spouse cheating on you have anything to do with you working that much for the last 4 years? How did the relationship even last that long? How much time did you spend together and how many nice things did you do together? I'm asking because the relationship I'm in would probably suffer a lot if I worked 80 hour weeks for two weeks in a row, let alone 4 years. I'm wondering h…

> did your spouse cheating on you have anything to do with you working that much for the last 4 years?

Probably, I worked so hard to build a future for us both that I ended up neglecting her far too much, I think if you don't get the emotional support you deserve off your other half sometimes you'll be tempted to look for it elsewhere, I can forgive her for that but I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who cheats, she could have at any point told me that's how she was feeling and I would have listened, mistakes both sides.

> How did the relationship even last that long?

We loved each other and I was working for our future plus despite the hours I tried to make time for her.

> I'm wondering how other people's relationships look from the inside.

I'm wondering that as well, the reality is that when you work 9am - 7pm 7 days a week there is not much time or energy to do anything else.

I've learnt my lesson but it came at a high price however the price would be wasted if I didn't learn.

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#93

Post by MrRage »

oldmanjay wrote: post #85
greggman wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I program because I love it. It's my hobby. I quit my job a 14 months ago. 5 months ago I thought of an idea I wanted to pursue. I've been spending 8-12 hours a day 5-6 days a week on it since then. I'm sorry you apparently picked a career you don't get real enjoyment from. Those of us that picked something we love don't see doing it a lot as a negative. We see it as just that, doing something we love.

You're getting voted down by people who assume that your experience can't possibly be real because it isn't their experience, but I feel the same as you. There are dozens of us!

I submit, as argued in my other comment, that greggman is the one assuming his/her experience should take priority.

If you are able to work years on end at 70 hours a week then more power to you. But that doesn't mean other people who do burn out are to blame or inferior b/c they didn't follow in greggman's footsteps or didn't choose "a career you don't get real enjoyment from".

Moreover, seriously consider this: Is working 72 hours for just 5 months enough to burn someone out? Especially if your young and responsibility free, wouldn't it take a lot longer?

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#94

Post by Smudge »

ranran876 wrote: post #73
FiatLuxDave wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also coming from outside the bubble. From a different viewpoint, though, programmers aren't so bad about this. Try hanging out with some medical doctors and nurses, instead. I might think my 60 hour weeks are bad, but i just can't complain about it to my wife when she gets home from her 80 hour weeks. Burnout is a completely accepted part of nursing, and many nurses take it into account in career planning. Not sa…

I think it's a bit apples to oranges. Programming is for the most part sitting quietly in front of a computer screen for hours each day. At face value it looks easier, but it's actually a lot more brain-numbing. If I'm honest with myself, I think I can do it for 4 hours a day before my brain starts to slowly shutdown. I've been working for only a couple years and I'm seriously concerned about my future in the industr…

The trick is to make those 4 hours as productive as possible, so the rest of your day can be spent on more menial tasks. Finding the right balance comes with time and experience, so I wouldn't stress about it too much.

Sometimes people claim they can be productive for 8 or more hours per day, for weeks on end. But likely what's happening is they are tricking themselves into feeling (and looking) productive, while their actual productivity finds an equilibrium far below what it could be if they paced themselves.

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#95

Post by normloman »

andyakb wrote: post #71
normloman wrote: post #22

Um... Not work so hard? I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal. Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.

This misses the point of the article. The author's premise is that you burnout because you do not spend time on the things that truly fulfill you, whatever those may be. It is very possible, and maybe even probable, that people who do not "work so hard" can still experience burn out because they do not use their free time to do the things that fulfill them. If you are working so hard that you simply cannot find any t…

I'm not missing the point of the article. I'm disregarding it. When you're working so hard that you burn out, we shouldn't be discussing how to mitigate the effects. Just stop working.

This author tries to pretend the cause of burnout is not too much work, but too much "unfufilling" work. As if working from morning till midnight is perfectly fine, as long as you convince yourself the code you write in this half-asleep state is making the world a better place (and not just lining the pockets of your boss). This is exactly the attitude the tech industry needs to erase.

Yes, programming can be fun, but everyone needs a break, even from fun things. Furthermore, having a fulfilling job doesn't mean your time is free.

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#96

Post by InclinedPlane »

reitanqild wrote: post #49

Isn't burnout originally something way worse than exhausted and demotivated? Examples: I burnt out once, it left me crying everytime I where alone and took me months to get through the first phase. Anything that reminded me about the old job, e.g. a faulty drive-train, could trigger stomach pain etc. It took 5 full years before I was really myself again even though I studied and had normal jobs during those years. I…

Yup, as I mentioned in another example, working is a business relationship analogous to a romantic relationship.

When one party is passionately in love, is hugely engaged in the relationship, and puts a great amount of work into the relationship (not merely hours but also emotional investment, etc.) while the other party is abusive, absent, disengaged, or what-have-you the result is often eventually severe emotional trauma and the dissolution of the relationship. That's true in romantic relationships, but also true in business relationships.

That's what most people don't realize about burnout. It's not merely physical, it's not about overwork, it's about psychological and emotional trauma on the scale of having your heart broken by a dysfunctional romantic relationship.

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#97

Post by poulsbohemian »

normloman wrote: post #22

Um... Not work so hard? I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal. Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.

Call it reaching for the brass ring. Tech is one of the few fields where fairly average people can get ahead and potentially move up the ladder. If my options are to burn out my body in the oil wells of South Dakota for a few years, or work hard at tech ventures over my whole career, the tech ventures have a better chance at a really big payout. Tech isn't perfect, and I'd agree there is a lot of problem with crazy hours and burn out, but it is also one of the few industries that is semi-meritocratic (so those long hours can pay off)

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#98

Post by normloman »

sergiosgc wrote: post #45
normloman wrote: post #22

Um... Not work so hard? I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal. Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.

There is another view. Programmers commonly have two characteristics that make them talk a lot about burnout: a) They are analytical people. It comes with the job. You can't program if you don't think analytically, and this characteristic can't possibly be confined to work activities, so it gets ingrained into personality. b) They like what they do. Naturally, this is not true for every individual, but is true for mo…

The burnout problem is not just talk. When I hear people on HN brag that they regularly work through dinner, thats evidence that high burnout rates are real.

And programmer's personality traits are not solely to blame. It's the whole culture of tech, and tech companies. It's Google and Microsoft building these campuses with every amenity you'll ever need (so you never have to leave). It's VCs looking for young 20 somethings to make startups (because 20 somethings rarely have a spouse and kids to care for). It's all of us on HN acting like this it's ok.

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#99

Post by ranran876 »

Smudge wrote: post #94
ranran876 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a bit apples to oranges. Programming is for the most part sitting quietly in front of a computer screen for hours each day. At face value it looks easier, but it's actually a lot more brain-numbing. If I'm honest with myself, I think I can do it for 4 hours a day before my brain starts to slowly shutdown. I've been working for only a couple years and I'm seriously concerned about my future in the industr…

The trick is to make those 4 hours as productive as possible, so the rest of your day can be spent on more menial tasks. Finding the right balance comes with time and experience, so I wouldn't stress about it too much. Sometimes people claim they can be productive for 8 or more hours per day, for weeks on end. But likely what's happening is they are tricking themselves into feeling (and looking) productive, while the…

I guess it's nice to hear I'm not alone. Well unfortunately you need to fill in the other 4 hours in a way that doesn't leave you feeling inadequate - but you're right, it's something to work on.

If I had it my way, I'd work half time programming and half time working a public facing job.

Re: Getting rid of burnout permanently

#100

Post by potatolicious »

sergiosgc wrote: post #45
normloman wrote: post #22

Um... Not work so hard? I'm not a programmer, so I'm viewing the stuff on hacker news from outside the bubble, so to speak. And from here, y'all look crazy. To the average person, spending extra hours at work with no overtime pay is absurd, but you all discuss it like it's no big deal. Your industry needs a huge cultural overhaul. People must be trained not to accept burnout as normal.

There is another view. Programmers commonly have two characteristics that make them talk a lot about burnout: a) They are analytical people. It comes with the job. You can't program if you don't think analytically, and this characteristic can't possibly be confined to work activities, so it gets ingrained into personality. b) They like what they do. Naturally, this is not true for every individual, but is true for mo…

> "Much to the contrary: the profession is so taxing for individuals that don't like to code that it self selects "code lovers"."

I disagree with this part. I think this part is entirely a myth we've concocted for ourselves - we overtly select for "code lovers" with the predisposition that non-"code lovers" are incapable of handling the work.

I have never, ever, seen this proven out, but it's a common belief nonetheless. In general I think there's too much "we're so special, we elite few" in this industry.

Yeah, there's a level of achievement - like any other field - that's only possible if you're living and breathing code, but the vast majority of tech jobs - even senior, high-level tech jobs - don't require this.

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