Live data from Hacker News

Subtle -isms at Hacker School

hackerschool.com

91–100 of 136 posts

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#91
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also want someone to tell me if I've said something offensive. It gives me an opportunity to re-evaluate my words, and reply accordingly. The reply might be "oops, sorry", or it might be "no, it wasn't." Thats the argument here. If further debate or discussion were necessary following that exchange, I would welcome it, but "oops, sorry" cannot and should not be the default because it assumes that whomever tak…

Again, the 'no debate' is more two-pronged: 1) No need to defend yourself, because no one is saying you're terrible, and 2) Keep the debate private, as opposed to long threads on the HS boards that just deteriorate into this. The one time I was accused of being subtly-sexist, I disagreed with the commenter and I told her so (privately). She stuck to her point, and by the end I didn't 100% agree with her and I thought…

> 1) No need to defend yourself, because no one is saying you're terrible

Accusations of sexism in technology need to be taken extremely seriously, as just the accusation alone can be all it takes for someone to be publicly vilified[1] or even fired[2].

In today's technology culture, the accusation of sexism can be even more damaging than the sexism itself.

That's a key reason for all this debate taking place. HS is promoting this culture in a way that encourages other companies and communities to adopt it, and the potential for abuse and misuse is far too high. It's very easy to imagine a culture developing as a result where someone is accused of sexism where there is none, and they either accept it and offer up an empty apology or they deny it and are crucified.

[1] http://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-of-a-pronoun

[2] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/how-dongle-jokes-...

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#92
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now we watch as the debate happens here by throwaway proxy. I'm certainly not going to attend HS, so do what you want, I suppose. I probably won't be hiring anyone who comes out of the program, either. I can't imagine interacting with a product of this environment. So conditioned to avoid not just confrontation but plain discourse. This is a social lobotomy.

It's 'conditioning' to be polite and think about what you say. It's sad that you think that's a negative.

I'm going after the debate embargo. I don't think it's good for business. I choose not to embrace it.

I also think that codifying subtly is a snipe hunt. In doing so, It's conditioning people to be afraid to speak lest someone be offended. The throwaways here are evidence. It's encouraging hypersensitivity.

I'm also going to point out that rather than attacking my argument, you called my thinking sad. In my reading of the rules, that's a no-no. I'm glad we're not following those rules here, because now we can have this argument. At least until we declare a moratorium on argument.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#93

It's really heartening that this has gone down like a lead balloon here. Seriously, anyone who manages to take offence at a mixed group being greeted with "you guys" really needs to find something better to do. It doesn't consciously or unconsciously make anyone's life worse. It's just a couple of words that are a convenient greeting.

I once had a foreign friend comment on the unfortunate lack of a plural form for "you" in English.

We Southerners tried to solve that problem ages ago with "y'all" but the rest of the country apparently doesn't care for it.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#94
It's really hard to predict the effect of social rules like these, which is why Hacker School does their best to actually test them empirically and change them if they're negatively impacting the environment.

A lot of people seem to be concerned about the chilling effects that these policies could have. This is a valid concern, as nobody wants to be in a place where they're constantly second-guessing everything they say.

The nice thing is that we don't just have to speculate, and we can look at what has actually happened at Hacker School, and the feedback from those who have actually experienced the environment seems overwhelmingly positive, both for people who have been traditionally marginalized and for those who have been unintentional marginalizers.

disclosure: I'm not a Hacker Schooler but I know Nick and Dave well. I've seen first hand how deeply and genuinely they care about making Hacker School both extremely inclusive and also free for open discussion and transparency.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#95
"we've been trying to stop using "you guys" to refer to mixed-gender groups."

Am I the only one that finds this over the top?

"No 'subtle -isms' is about recognizing the ways we're unconciously [sic] making our friends' lives a little worse."

I'm sorry, if your life is made worse by a completely benign (and friendly) statement like "ok guys, have a nice weekend" then you are naive and irrational. Creating an environment that indulges every childish sensitivity does not do those individuals any favors and makes a mockery of their cause.

"For the last year, the 'No subtle -isms' rule has carried some implementation guidelines. One of these is asking people not to debate whether or not something is an -ism."

Accusing someone of (even subtle) sexism or racism is not to be taken lightly—this rule forces the accused to apologize (affirming the alleged bias) without defending or explaining themselves. This is unethical and dilutes legitimate complaints.

A proverb that comes to mind: "Those who speak most about misfortune will find it. Those who speak most about success will find it."

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#96

Well today's my day to be the not-so-subtle-ist asshole at Hacker News. It's one thing to recognise that systemic forms of bias and discrimination can be subtle and invisible to those trying to fix them, but all this sort of thing does is hand more keys over to a small subset of people who are less interested in making the world more equal and more interested in grabbing, holding and exercising social power. Shaming…

Having met some of the Hacker School faculty (though not the OP) and discussed their social rules, I don't believe this is a shaming ritual, in intent or practice. I think it's more like a code review. "You need to check for a null pointer there." "I think what you said was subtly racist." "Did you think about making this its own class? It might be easier to test that way." "That was a well-actually." The intent is t…

I think the expected response is more "oh yeah, good point!" than "I'm sorry".

Both responses assume that the assessment was correct, and that's a problem. The subtly critical part of the exchange takes place in public. If there's agreement that may happen publicly, but if there's disagreement it happens privately.

FTFA:

After this, we ask that all further discussion move off of public channels. If you are a third party, and you don't see what could be biased about the comment that was made, feel free to talk to faculty.

It then become the responsibility of those around you to go find out what really went on when someone made an unfavorable claim about you.

I realize the goal is to avoid prolonged "No it wasn't" "Yes it was" exchanges but this approach is asymmetrical in favoring accusation over rebuttal.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#97
post #93

It's really heartening that this has gone down like a lead balloon here. Seriously, anyone who manages to take offence at a mixed group being greeted with "you guys" really needs to find something better to do. It doesn't consciously or unconsciously make anyone's life worse. It's just a couple of words that are a convenient greeting.

I once had a foreign friend comment on the unfortunate lack of a plural form for "you" in English. We Southerners tried to solve that problem ages ago with "y'all" but the rest of the country apparently doesn't care for it.

Well, going back a few centuries further, we used to have thou/thee (nominative/objective singular) and ye/you (nominative/objective plural). For some reason we ended up with the plurals being used as the singulars and no proper plurals at all.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "no debate" thing seems really odd and control-freakish on their part, I'll give you that. But if you look at people trying to make tech a more inclusive community and call it an "invasion," you're reflecting the exact view that made movements like this pop up. If "the good old days" were really that good, why have women been almost intentionally excluded from IT until relatively recently? Do you mean "good" for…

>why have women been almost intentionally excluded from IT until relatively recently? I have never excluded women. Also IT, tech, hackers are not interchangeable terms. >Do you mean "good" for people in general, or "good" for you? I meant good for hackers. People with a certain world view, goals and sense of humor. >When you say "we are being invaded," who is "we"? Again, hackers. We never cared for race nor sexualit…

You say you've never excluded women, but you are aggressively dismissing an attempt -- it seems, mostly from women -- at improving what they perceive as sexist undertones in the workplace.

If someone says "hey, we should work on addressing this sexism," and the response is, "be quiet, there isn't any sexism, you just hate fun," that seems pretty stinking sexist, doesn't it? Dismissing someone's concerns by saying they aren't real doesn't address the concerns, it just sweeps them under the rug because they aren't perceived as being important enough to give a shit about.

If some group has evolved office slang that includes saying "Quit being a ginger" to people who make dumb mistakes, and then that group hires some redheaded dude, wouldn't it be within his rights to say "hey guys, it's kind of weird to use 'ginger' as a euphemism for 'dumbass'"? Yeah, maybe he's "invading" and stepping on the group's ability to insult people at the expense of other groups, but it doesn't mean he's wrong.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#99
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now we watch as the debate happens here by throwaway proxy. I'm certainly not going to attend HS, so do what you want, I suppose. I probably won't be hiring anyone who comes out of the program, either. I can't imagine interacting with a product of this environment. So conditioned to avoid not just confrontation but plain discourse. This is a social lobotomy.

It's 'conditioning' to be polite and think about what you say. It's sad that you think that's a negative.

It's terrible that you think reflexively apologizing is the same thing as politeness.

Re: Subtle -isms at Hacker School

#100

"we've been trying to stop using "you guys" to refer to mixed-gender groups." Am I the only one that finds this over the top? "No 'subtle -isms' is about recognizing the ways we're unconciously [sic] making our friends' lives a little worse." I'm sorry, if your life is made worse by a completely benign (and friendly) statement like "ok guys, have a nice weekend" then you are naive and irrational. Creating an environm…

The "you guys" instance seems a bit silly at first but is a good example of the way our language promotes the idea of male as the default. Note that there are no feminine words which we gender-neutralize in a similar way--we refer to a collective as "guys" or humanity as "mankind," but never use "gals" or "womankind" to refer to a mixed-gender group. In this way we construct women as an other, in opposition to men: the expected members of the workplace are guys, we expect history-makers to be men, and women are the odd exception to that rule.

It is important to note that very few of the people who use these linguistic constructs are being intentionally sexist in doing so, and as such nobody is taking hurt or offense away from the use of "guys" to refer to a mixed-gender group or anything like that. This is not an exercise in respecting others' sensitivities so much as an effort to recognize the way our actions subtly reinforce the problematic and undoubtedly biased power structures that exist in our current culture. As others have pointed out in this thread, the participants in Hacker School share a common interest refusing to reinforce said power structures, and as such put rules in place to codify that commitment to helping one another change the way they interact with the world.

As others have noted, these are not accusations--which would certainly not be appropriate or productive to whip out in the middle of a meeting--but gentle reminders amongst like-minded people to watch the way their words impact the world around them.

Post reply on HN