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From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

nytimes.com

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Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#91

Post by danielweber »

diminoten wrote: post #83
danielweber wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm happy to criticize many NASA design decisions, like the entire Space Shuttle concept. (Which honestly has a lot to do with political requirements but are still bad decisions.) But what do you think I've said in the comment you replied to that trumps NASA's design decisions? That sterilization is unimportant? I think NASA sterilizing the equipment it uses to detect life is obviously the right design decision. Ther…

I'm referencing specifically around your comments related to sterilization ("If colonization were a matter of just moving from one to the other, it would have happened already."). It's simply baffling to me, that a person could sit in front of a computer with absolutely no education or understanding in a topic and call a litany of experts in a field all wrong within the same hour as learning of the specific problem i…

It ought to be surprising to me that a total stranger would accuse me of having "no education or understanding of a topic", and then proceed to shit on me for daring to agree with NASA's practice of -- seriously, of all things -- sterilizing the equipment used to detect signs of life.

But, I'm not surprised. Welcome to Internet.

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#92

Post by danielweber »

exhilaration wrote: post #63
DominikR wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there even any general moral imperativ, that every or at least most cultures agree with, which says that we should not contaminate other planets? No. Or is there any entity on this planet, that could claim it has legitimate interests (or even ownership) in keeping the atmosphere of Mars clean, which should prevent India from sending people to Mars in a way that we don't like? Again, im my opinion the answer is no.…

> Because there are enough planets that every human being on earth could have its own. Bro, we're never reaching those planets, FTL travel is a fantasy. Are you really willing to bet whatever life is on Mars on the hope that humans will someday be able to travel faster than light? What we could learn from extraterrestrial life, even if it's only microbes, could open vast new areas of biology research - potentially cu…

If you accept the ability for people to travel to and live on other bodies in the solar system, it's very plausible to assume that people can move between star systems, without any scifi stuff like warp drives or wormholes.

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#93

Post by DominikR »

simias wrote: post #77
DominikR wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the long run we manage to terraform the planet, maybe. Now what? We get a new retirement centre on Mars? We might get new resources. There are many wars happening that are all about resources. Also, we might get space, which could reduce tensions on earth. > I'm not so sure I'm willing to believe we would be "improving" Mars in the long run. What could we possibly do to Mars, that in practical terms could make i…

> We might get new resources. There are many wars happening that are all about resources. Also, we might get space, which could reduce tensions on earth. The problem is that we grow exponentially. How long would a 2nd earth last us at our current rate or expansion and resource consumption? Not to mention the massive amount of resources we'll have to take from earth in order to reach Mars and make in inhabitable. > Wh…

Look, I fully agree with you, that ideally we should find a middle ground and learn not to destroy in order to move forward.

But my view on this issue is based on what is practical and what history teaches us.

We actually always destroy things, to move forward.

I'd rather have us not spending so much energy on dominance and wars and instead on science and social systems, but the truth is that there is no sign that we will ever change our ways.

That's why I applaud any country whenever it puts some energy into something, that isn't just about wars and geopolitics.

Even if it's very limited resources they are investing, it's in my opinion still better than doing nothing at all, or spending the 70 million on a few tanks that will rot away somewhere close to the Pakistani border.

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#94

Post by mikeash »

IanDrake wrote: post #86
mikeash wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was nothing on the roads but fancy Ferraris, and then somebody came along and made a cheap GM that got the job done for much less, that would be newsworthy.

To me it's not that it's newsworthy or not, but how it's presented. It's not that Americans/Europeans can't do what the Indians did, but that we're not interested in doing what they did. The article seems to confuse the two.

How do you know they can do it, if they never have? "I could do that, I just don't want to" is the lamest excuse in the book.

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#95

Post by diminoten »

danielweber wrote: post #91
diminoten wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referencing specifically around your comments related to sterilization ("If colonization were a matter of just moving from one to the other, it would have happened already."). It's simply baffling to me, that a person could sit in front of a computer with absolutely no education or understanding in a topic and call a litany of experts in a field all wrong within the same hour as learning of the specific problem i…

It ought to be surprising to me that a total stranger would accuse me of having "no education or understanding of a topic", and then proceed to shit on me for daring to agree with NASA's practice of -- seriously, of all things -- sterilizing the equipment used to detect signs of life. But, I'm not surprised. Welcome to Internet.

Firstly, this is about what you did, not about you. Relax, we're just folks talking about stuff on the Internet, I'm not calling you Satan or accusing you of treason! No one's going to die if we can't agree.

Secondly, you said this, "If colonization were a matter of just moving from one to the other, it would have happened already." I'm trying to understand why you feel you're qualified to make a statement like that. Are you an expert on this topic? If not, that's okay!

You say you're agreeing with NASA's practice, but I guess that's just the flip side of the same coin, isn't it?

What I'm trying to get at is why people (not just you, and you've hardly "sinned" at all here) do this broad stating of opinions on scientific topics like this. It seems to lend credence to the idea that all thoughts are equally important, when we all know that's not true.

To me, this feels like the same kind of thing that we get on the news, when we see "experts" deny climate change by pontificating broadly with the same level of apparent airtime as actual experts who argue in favor of it using their expertise and their experimentation results.

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#96

Post by mrfusion »

freehunter wrote: post #90
mrfusion wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO I view it differently. It would be a huge tragedy if we are the only life that has ever evolved in the universe and it all quietly ends on the same planet it started it. If there's a chance we can get even single celled life established on a another planet we should go for it. The loss of a bit of science is small potatoes compared to the fate of life in the universe.

I'm not sure there is a catastrophe big enough to destroy all life (and all hope for future life) on Earth that would not also destroy Mars (think Sun exploding). Even a major asteroid strike wouldn't kill off everything on the planet, as per the dinosaur extinction theory.

Well it could end human life, and thus end the ability to move any other life off of the planet, right?

Or think about the LHC creating a black hole (not likely but when talking about the fate of life in the universe, worth considering.)

Or even runaway global warming turning Earth into Venus? (Not sure if it's possible, just ideas)

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#97

Post by chdir »

wippler wrote: post #52
someperson wrote: post #9

What the NYT article didn't mention was the lack of sterilization of the ISRO spacecraft. A huge portion of the budget for a probe like MAVEN [1] or JUNO [2] is spent reducing the chance of Earth microbes colonizing Mars or a moon of Jupiter. It would be a huge shame for us to have doubt whether the first extra terrestial microbes we find in the solar system were really alien or simply Space Age Earth based life [1]…

Its Mars orbiter, not lander.

Orbiter may crash on the surface (not sure if it'll burn like an asteroid).

Happened with NASA in 1999 : http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,288...

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#98

Post by chdir »

IanDrake wrote: post #67

Seems like a pretty ill conceived article. Might as well have written about how American car companies like GM are able to produce much less expensive cars than the Italians like Ferrari. Both cars have engines, tires, etc... but WOW, can the Americans do it for so much less...

Could you be more substantive with your analogy. Ferrari is producing cars in a category because they have buyers/racers who want/need it. NASA wouldn't be interested in making luxury spacecraft just because they can.

I'm more interested in your argument about what's the "value per dollar" that the two missions are achieving (rather than equating them with GM & Ferrari). This PSLV sent by ISRO was used to piggyback satellites from Canada, Germany, France & Singapore.

Re: From India, Proof That a Trip to Mars Doesn’t Have to Break the Bank

#99

Post by [deleted] »

autokad wrote: post #57

i see little overlap with sending humans to mars. i dont think its a great way to send people such a distance (and expect to get them back) by cutting corners in planning, redundancy, etc. And its my understanding that the bulk of the costs of going there is getting all the fuel and supplies from earth to there, which is not solved by paying rocket scientists 1000$ a month. NASA already operates on a shoestring budge…

[deleted]
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