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Dart 1.5

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Re: Dart 1.5

#91

Post by stesch »

jmesserly wrote: post #89
stesch wrote: post #58

I wouldn't use Dart until this bug is fixed: https://code.google.com/p/dart/issues/detail?id=13285

fyi, I think most of my original complaints in that bug are either fixed, or largely mitigated. I don't think we've had any issues for over a year now (since Dart 1.0). I still wish it was even more bulletproof, but it isn't scary anymore like it was. Google is building lots of stuff in Dart too, so we're on the hook if something breaks.

Dart doesn't work correctly in Firefox 31 Beta. People will have to recompile all their Dart apps next month.

Re: Dart 1.5

#92

Post by spankalee »

lmkg wrote: post #46
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

How well does Dart interact with JavaScript, especially libraries that are asynchronously loaded? I know that the Dart compiler is a whole-program optimizer, and I get the impression that Dart wants to own all the code on the page. In my line of work (web analytics), I have to use third-party JavaScript libraries in order to integrate tools onto my page, like Adobe Analytics (formerly Omniture SiteCatalyst) or IBM Co…

Hi, I'm on the Dart team too and maintain dart:js which allows you to call JavaScript from Dart. I'm a little busy right this second, but ask any questions and I'll be glad to answer them!

Re: Dart 1.5

#93

Post by mythz »

lukasm wrote: post #56
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Planning to build NodeJS like env in Dart? I'd like to Dart to happen. What worries my is that Dart has Java EE mentality. Hipster programmers won't touch it and lack of traction may kill the project. What's the solution? Performance may be a great USP. Rewrite Gmail in Dart, so tools like Streak, Rapportive and other extensions won't kill the performance.

There's a bunch of web frameworks that already as well:

Redstone is becoming increasingly popular: http://luizmineo.github.io/redstone.dart/

Whilst I've built a simple Express-like API: https://github.com/dartist/express

Which also includes a complete port of node's popular jade view engine: https://github.com/dartist/jaded

Re: Dart 1.5

#94

Post by jmesserly »

YousefED wrote: post #87
_random_ wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Google's vision for Dart going forward? Why is it not a primary language for Android? I really like Dart. Google is pretty much the only company trying to break the tyranny of JS in browsers. (e.g. Microsoft clearly said that they are betting on C# and .NET as their main offering for everything - would be nice if Google was capable of this sort of direct messages)

I actually think microsoft is very much behind non-.net technologies as well nowadays. My experience with their TypeScript initiative has been really smooth, feels like they're trying to improve JS instead of inventing something new (by sticking as close as possible to the ES.next specs). The generated JS is very close to the original, both in size as readability.

disclaimer: I'm a huge fan of TypeScript and the folks working on it, but now work on Dart and JS stuff at Google, so I'm probably biased in all kinds of ways :)

The way I like to think of it:

If the main thing you want in JavaScript is types and classes, TypeScript is brilliant. It adds exactly those things, and does so in a very attractive and seamless way. Classes are already in EcmaScript 6, and I wouldn't be surprised if TypeScript annotations make it into a future version ES (there's a strawman proposal: http://wiki.ecmascript.org/doku.php?id=strawman:types), so the forward compatibility story is good too.

If you want to fix more things in JS, such as:

  * massively improve all core libraries and types
  * improve the DOM
  * add integers
  * add operator overloading including [] []=
  * make Map a distinct type, instead of all objects being maps
  * switch from prototypes to classes
  * removed undefined
  * fix == operator
  * remove implicit conversions
  * tree shaking: no worries about which library is less KB's
  * add named arguments
  * add many features ES could add but at a faster velocity
  * consistent libraries (e.g. Dart standardized on Futures)
  * ... probably more stuff I'm forgetting ...
TL;DR -- TypeScript is a targeted fix, Dart tries to fix all-the-things. Both approaches have merit.

Re: Dart 1.5

#96

Post by ahoge »

munificent wrote: post #67
macspoofing wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dart in Chrome? Dart on Android? Will the Dart IDE look correctly on Windows 8 high-dpi devices? (I know that's partially an Eclipse problem) In fact, what is the future of Dart? Is it just a complement to browser-based JavaScript?

> Dart in Chrome? We're working on it! Having two language virtual machines with objects that can contain references to each other is quite technically challenging. There's a bunch of work to be done to address that[1]. Along the way, we're working with the larger Chrome team to address any other requirements they have. > Dart on Android? The Dart VM does run on Android right now [2]. My understanding is that the per…

An interesting advantage compared to Dalvik (or the JVM) is the ability to make use of SIMD. If your bottleneck would benefit from SIMD, you can gain quite a lot.

It does of course require some additional work, but thanks to operator overloading it looks fairly nice.

Re: Dart 1.5

#97

Post by ahoge »

lukasm wrote: post #56
munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

Planning to build NodeJS like env in Dart? I'd like to Dart to happen. What worries my is that Dart has Java EE mentality. Hipster programmers won't touch it and lack of traction may kill the project. What's the solution? Performance may be a great USP. Rewrite Gmail in Dart, so tools like Streak, Rapportive and other extensions won't kill the performance.

The SDK is shipped with a standalone version of the VM which can do I/O (via the 'dart:io' package). You can use it to write command line applications and web servers. Basically, it's like Node right off the bat.

I/O performance increased drastically with 1.3. The performance is tracked over here:

https://www.dartlang.org/performance/io/

1.4 added experimental support for ServerSocket references, which allow you to share a socket across isolates (~"workers"):

https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!topic/misc/...

Re: Dart 1.5

#98

Post by gozzoo »

munificent wrote: post #35

Hi! I'm on the Dart team. If you'd like, I'll try to answer any questions you have.

What is your take on swift? Do you think dart can borrow some ideas from swift? Most of it is just syntax sugar, but it is very pleasant to look and work with.

Re: Dart 1.5

#99

Post by ahoge »

comex wrote: post #9
msie wrote: post #3

I was at last year's Google IO and a lot of people were asking the Dart representatives about whether Dart was going to be supported in Chrome (not just Chromium). We were told the team was holding off because of performance considerations. It has been ONE WHOLE YEAR since then.

Why do you want it to be supported in Chrome? Any performance improvements seen by your users won't apply to those using any other browser.

> Any performance improvements seen by your users won't apply to those using any other browser.

It will be still about as fast as regular JavaScript.

Re: Dart 1.5

#100

Post by dbdavidson »

ahoge wrote: post #97
lukasm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Planning to build NodeJS like env in Dart? I'd like to Dart to happen. What worries my is that Dart has Java EE mentality. Hipster programmers won't touch it and lack of traction may kill the project. What's the solution? Performance may be a great USP. Rewrite Gmail in Dart, so tools like Streak, Rapportive and other extensions won't kill the performance.

The SDK is shipped with a standalone version of the VM which can do I/O (via the 'dart:io' package). You can use it to write command line applications and web servers. Basically, it's like Node right off the bat. I/O performance increased drastically with 1.3. The performance is tracked over here: https://www.dartlang.org/performance/io/ 1.4 added experimental support for ServerSocket references, which allow you to s…

The round-9 techempower benchmark shows Dart as very impressive in its "Multiple Queries" runs. However, the json serialization not so much. Is there something in the works to speed this up or technical reasons it does not shine here? Also, what are the plans for speeding up regular expresssions?
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