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We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

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Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#91

Post by x0x0 »

hga wrote: post #72
hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

One big issue for me is that brands have become drastically less useful in predicting product quality. Very few of the major brands that were big when I grew up in the '70s haven't thrown away their quality in favor of ... I'm not sure. Sony is a good example, even good through the '80s as well, as long as you didn't get something manufactured in Mexico with cold soldier joints, as my family back in SW Missouri did,…

I think people underrate how much this benefits apple. While I'm sure there are people with different experiences, apple in general, and in my experience, don't sell shit products and stand behind what they sell. With a full motherboard changeout available at a local apple store if necessary. Contrast to hp: we had a hp laptop w/ a next business day in-home warranty that nonetheless spent a week or more in hp's repair shops on two occasions. I've also gotten new power bricks outside of warranty basically by asking nicely at the local apple store. It may be because I do spend a lot of money on apple gear, but I used to do that w/ dell and dell never gave a shit.

The brand I'm most surprised about is sears. They used to make great appliances and stand behind them until the private equity thieves fucked that all up. My partner runs a medium-sized apartment building; the owner is happy to pay for quality, and if sears cost less on the 10-15 year time frame they'd buy it. But sears is the same cheap crap, so they just buy whatever is close to cheapest at home depot.

When brands throw away their brand name and turn into the same cheap shit, you can't blame consumers for shopping just on price.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#92

Post by danmaz74 »

There is one very important point that I didn't see in the article, nor the comments. By not advertising in search, incumbents would make it less expensive for newcomers to put their offer in front of the incumbent's customers. This can be very risky.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#93

Post by larrys »

hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

"Now that product info is ubiquitous, the author says, the role of brands and traditional advertising is declining"

Declining but still very important. All else equal someone will make a purchase from a brand that they have used, know, or trust, over another brand which they have less or no experience with. I would also argue that even on a lesser feature set the existing brand has a clear edge. And there are other issues like wanting everything to look similar (say with kitchen appliances) or other tie ins.

Let's look at YC as a brand. My guess is that even if statistics were shown that another place was "better" for a startup (if better could be defined) the edge, because of the "brand", would go to YC. Now if YC is not "in your face anymore", say HN declines in popularity, that brand could easily suffer.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#95

Post by room271 »

markowenh wrote: post #17

Just because something cannot be quantified DOES not mean it does not work....Marketing is often UNQUANTIFYABLE...but almost always effective.

I think people are being harsh in the down-votes here.

I suspect most people (HN people) hold pretty strongly the belief that everything can be quantified. However, within reasonable limits and current stats and science, lots of things in practice cannot - yet at least.

A lot of advertising probably falls under this. To verify effectiveness we'd need, as the article notes, to control for so many other factors that it would often be too difficult.

So we often guess, or leverage past knowledge and apply it to what we hope are similar circumstances.

If you take the point to be that marketing is not a hard-science, than it's true. Some cases sure, but plenty not.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#96

Post by brownbat »

hga wrote: post #72
hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

One big issue for me is that brands have become drastically less useful in predicting product quality. Very few of the major brands that were big when I grew up in the '70s haven't thrown away their quality in favor of ... I'm not sure. Sony is a good example, even good through the '80s as well, as long as you didn't get something manufactured in Mexico with cold soldier joints, as my family back in SW Missouri did,…

Yeah, now you get brands substituting inferior parts on the same model after the initial reviews come in.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184253-ssd-shadiness-king...

http://www.autoweek.com/car-shopping/articles/2012/01/decont...

HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7893068

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#97

Post by hga »

x0x0 wrote: post #91
hga wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big issue for me is that brands have become drastically less useful in predicting product quality. Very few of the major brands that were big when I grew up in the '70s haven't thrown away their quality in favor of ... I'm not sure. Sony is a good example, even good through the '80s as well, as long as you didn't get something manufactured in Mexico with cold soldier joints, as my family back in SW Missouri did,…

I think people underrate how much this benefits apple. While I'm sure there are people with different experiences, apple in general, and in my experience, don't sell shit products and stand behind what they sell. With a full motherboard changeout available at a local apple store if necessary. Contrast to hp: we had a hp laptop w/ a next business day in-home warranty that nonetheless spent a week or more in hp's repai…

Well, Sears never actually made their white goods appliances, but they used to do a very good job of sourcing their Kenmore brand ones. That's what my mother, something of a Laundry Nazi, used when she was washing for my father, who hunted and did other things that got clothes dirty, and me, my sister ... and my two younger brothers. Serious cleaning required, which I helped with. Hummm, ditto refrigerators.

Now it's a don't even bother with them.

I don't know about your private equity compliant; are you referring to the late 2004 deal with K-Mart? I'm pretty sure Sears had already "lost it" by then, although I'd have to check to be absolutely sure about Kenmore appliances. If so, it took them only two years to completely lose it, because I bought a washer and dryer in 2007, started looking in Sears and then went with GE (in part because my family has a special relationship with the local dealer). Of course I learned my own Laundry Nazi style from my mother....

"When brands throw away their brand name and turn into the same cheap shit, you can't blame consumers for shopping just on price."

Bingo. There are times when I just give up trying to get something I have confidence in being good and roll the dice with price being a major factor.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#98

Post by hga »

brownbat wrote: post #96
hga wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big issue for me is that brands have become drastically less useful in predicting product quality. Very few of the major brands that were big when I grew up in the '70s haven't thrown away their quality in favor of ... I'm not sure. Sony is a good example, even good through the '80s as well, as long as you didn't get something manufactured in Mexico with cold soldier joints, as my family back in SW Missouri did,…

Yeah, now you get brands substituting inferior parts on the same model after the initial reviews come in. http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184253-ssd-shadiness-king... http://www.autoweek.com/car-shopping/articles/2012/01/decont... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7893068

I haven't yet found it to be that bad, at least not yet. E.g. I've always considered Kingston to be iffy except for DRAM, where their lifetime warranty speaks for itself (and isn't bogus, I've had to do one replacement).

The auto decontenting is pretty obvious if you pay any degree of attention, and American tend to do that with their cars.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#99

Post by josephcooney »

superuser2 wrote: post #77
hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

One place where marketers have gotten around this quite adeptly is Windows PCs and laptops. Try searching for reviews on a laptop you find at Best Buy. There are none. The model number is 10+ random characters and completely meaningless. Comparison shopping between laptops on the basis of reviews is impossible. Consequently, they have you buying on 1) brand and 2) specs, which is right where they want you, and comple…

I think Best Buy and co. do that to prevent them having to make good on "price matching" promises - everyone sells a different model (that really only differs by the model number), so since no-one sells "the same" model they can SAY they price-match without ever actually having to. I believe they do this for TVs too.

Re: We Have No Idea If Online Ads Work

#100

Post by lelandbatey »

superuser2 wrote: post #77
hawkharris wrote: post #12

This reminds me of a fascinating article in The New Yorker called "Twilight of the Brands." [0] The author's basic argument is that brands have historically filled an information gap. Before the Internet, when consumers didn't have tons of on-demand info about products, brands were a compass that pointed them in the right direction. If the last Sylvania TV you bought worked well, you might buy another one without hun…

One place where marketers have gotten around this quite adeptly is Windows PCs and laptops. Try searching for reviews on a laptop you find at Best Buy. There are none. The model number is 10+ random characters and completely meaningless. Comparison shopping between laptops on the basis of reviews is impossible. Consequently, they have you buying on 1) brand and 2) specs, which is right where they want you, and comple…

I noticed this as well, but it just pushed me towards those kinds of companies that use reliable identifiers like Lenovo. I find that if a company is doing this kind of weird naming, they're probably not in the business of selling things based on quality.
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