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Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

utexas.edu

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Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#91

Post by Nrsolis »

jqm wrote: post #87
PavlovsCat wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was the when a country gets invaded, its economy and politics tend to get restructured in favour of the invader. I wouldn't go so far to say this proves it was engineered, but I think that was the implication.

Exactly. I don't mean to "prove" nor even "imply". The word used was "suspicious". When these type of problems pop up in resource rich or strategically important locations and it gets a lot of air time on the news and we have to do something because "think of the children!" I am.... suspicious.

We sent the Marines into Haiti to rescue the civilian population after the natural disasters there.

For the life of me, I can't imagine what economic interest we had there.

I know because a good friend ended up killing himself after witnessing the human tragedy there. He was a Marine pilot.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#92

Post by Nrsolis »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #82
Nrsolis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was hunted and murdered by organized, trained killers THAT WERE SUPPORTED and FUNDED BY THE CIVILIANS. FTFY. Sorry Bub. Your hands aren't clean there. And don't forget that Einstein wrote the letter to the FDR that kicked off the race to build the atomic weapon. Even HE was asking for the USG to do something that would squelch the evil of Nazi aggression. If you believe that soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines…

> Sorry Bub. Your hands aren't clean there. I totally agree with that. If you look at it as a pyramid, and the moment of a soldier shooting someone as the very tip, a LOT goes into that. There is a bit in Robert Antelme's "The Human Race" where he actually says the supposedly innocent and righteous civil society, with its supposed values, that underpinned and enabled the SS at times stirred up more resentment than th…

Einstein clearly wasn't certain that the Germans wouldn't have produced a bomb. That's why he acted. It was the threat that convinced him he needed to get involved.

Just as certainly, we don't know the future. We need to be prepared for as many situations as necessary. That means that soldiers must be trained, armies must be maintained, and the citizenry should be aware.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#93

Post by jqm »

Nrsolis wrote: post #91
jqm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I don't mean to "prove" nor even "imply". The word used was "suspicious". When these type of problems pop up in resource rich or strategically important locations and it gets a lot of air time on the news and we have to do something because "think of the children!" I am.... suspicious.

We sent the Marines into Haiti to rescue the civilian population after the natural disasters there. For the life of me, I can't imagine what economic interest we had there. I know because a good friend ended up killing himself after witnessing the human tragedy there. He was a Marine pilot.

well, let me cynically suggest at least one "economic advantage"...

The government of a country within boat reach of Florida falls apart and people start starving and the exodus towards the shores of America by Haitians reaches epidemic proportions...

But this is just wild speculation. Look... I'm not saying all military adventures by the US are economically driven. But lots of them probably are. I'm naturally suspicious of them at this point and I think with good reason. Besides, I don't care for the massive expense and think it inefficient and generally unnecessary at current levels.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#94

Post by Nrsolis »

jqm wrote: post #93
Nrsolis wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We sent the Marines into Haiti to rescue the civilian population after the natural disasters there. For the life of me, I can't imagine what economic interest we had there. I know because a good friend ended up killing himself after witnessing the human tragedy there. He was a Marine pilot.

well, let me cynically suggest at least one "economic advantage"... The government of a country within boat reach of Florida falls apart and people start starving and the exodus towards the shores of America by Haitians reaches epidemic proportions... But this is just wild speculation. Look... I'm not saying all military adventures by the US are economically driven. But lots of them probably are. I'm naturally suspic…

Really?

You're going to stand by that statement? You think America sent the Marines and all of the aid workers there to make sure that we wouldn't get more Haitians in the USA?

Wow. That's probably the MOST racist thing I've seen posted on HN to date.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#95

Post by [deleted] »

jqm wrote: post #93
Nrsolis wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We sent the Marines into Haiti to rescue the civilian population after the natural disasters there. For the life of me, I can't imagine what economic interest we had there. I know because a good friend ended up killing himself after witnessing the human tragedy there. He was a Marine pilot.

well, let me cynically suggest at least one "economic advantage"... The government of a country within boat reach of Florida falls apart and people start starving and the exodus towards the shores of America by Haitians reaches epidemic proportions... But this is just wild speculation. Look... I'm not saying all military adventures by the US are economically driven. But lots of them probably are. I'm naturally suspic…

[deleted]

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#96

Post by jacquesm »

Nrsolis wrote: post #89
jacquesm wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a Navy Seals action underway to rescue the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram? That's news to me, all I know is there were a few rumors. The problem is not that navy seals could not be deployed to do good, the problem is that they are just as likely to be deployed to do harm. Anne Frank has nothing to do with any of this, the dutch army was of no significance whatsoever (but the dutch resistance was). As for me '…

I think you're missing the point entirely. The point of the example is to show that without good people who are willing to fight against those who would do innocents harm, those good people get hurt. I think that if you kidnap little girls, you're evil. I think that if you set off a bomb in a hotel lobby, you're evil. I think if you crash a plane into a building and kill thousands, you're evil. In my world, if you in…

In my world, if you invade a country on a pretext and kill tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, you're out of control. Especially if in the run-up to such an invasion you squelch every possible voice of opposition or reason.

That's where the problem lies, by your own definition your country is evil (not by mine, I don't believe in the whole good/evil thing, it's just a simplification to make it easier to delude voters into thinking things are easy to understand when in fact they are not).

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#97

Post by jacquesm »

mpyne wrote: post #83
jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which enemy is that? Try harming (directly) one that is dear to me and we'll see how I feel about not fighting. Try sending me to some country halfway across the planet to further the agenda of a bunch of politicians that make sure they're safe themselves and as far away from harm as they could possibly be and I refuse to budge. Navy seals have given the ability to make that choice to their superiors. Let's just leav…

> Let's just leave it at that I've seen authority abused So have we all at some point, I'd imagine. Is it your opinion that anything that can be abused should be forbidden? Because no offense, but that's the same logic in the child's fairy tale about the boy who cried wolf. You're very rightly pointing out that if you make false use of your authority too often that you should expect people to not trust you in the fut…

Those people will stop trusting that particular authority, but that does not mean they have to drop common sense entirely. They definitely should be more skeptical. The boy who cried wolf got eaten, not the others.

As for my decision, it was definitely not made possible because other people did not make that same decision, you could easily argue by that exact same rhetorical trick that if everybody would act like me that war would be impossible.

I recognize that is not a reality, all I do is reserve the right to act when I see fit rather than to put my hands at others disposal, especially when those others so clearly do not deserve my loyalty. My granddad was interned in ww-II (German prisoner of war camp, forced labor for the Opel car company, a supplier of transport for officers). He could (if he were still alive) tell you a thing or two about how much damage one can inflict on an army without being in a uniform. This is not a binary choice and it is not nice to pretend that it is so.

Patronizing aside, I'm not quick to judge, I took a long time to get to this position.

Right after 9/11 the world was as one (with very few exceptions worth noting) on the side of the US. That trust and momentum could have been used for good, instead it was abused and it destroyed the image of the US for a long time and for a large number of people. Epic fail, to use a popular term.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#98

Post by jacquesm »

CatheryneN wrote: post #90
Nrsolis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a horribly naive viewpoint. You've fallen into the trap of making a judgement of someone based on a popular understanding of a particular profession rather than any factual reality. And here are the facts: 1. There is evil in the world. 2. That evil sometimes hurts innocent people. 3. We need some way of protecting innocent people from evil. I'm reminded of the current hullabaloo about Boko Haram and the kidn…

I have a stronger opinion for those who live in safe countries and have no concern for the people who keep them safe and comfortable. The fact that everyone on this thread can voice their opinion freely, criticize openly, and play armchair quarterback on something they may know nothing about should speak volumes. Today and tomorrow is the time for grace for those who have laid down their life in service to our countr…

You have a few nice bumper stickers in there.

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#99

Post by pavelrub »

Nrsolis wrote: post #77
speakmemory wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is an extremely disrespectful and kneejerk reaction to a very thoughtful comment on the parent article. One factor that contributes to the readiness of the United States to go to war that escaped your analysis is that any critique, however mild, of the armed forces is met with furious moral indignation.

Because you're blaming the WRONG PARTY. It's not the Armed Forces that should receive the criticism. It's the government and the civilians that push for them to go abroad and carry out their wishes. How is that not something you understand?

Why is this downvoted exactly?

Re: Adm. McRaven Urges Graduates to Find Courage to Change the World

#100

Post by pavelrub »

spodek wrote: post #4

It sounds like an impressive speech. I understand people share his values. The bravest and most meaningful action I saw from a military person was a college roommate who had returned from active duty as a Marine in the Gulf War. I don't know if his training was as intense as a SEAL's but he saw active duty and looked long and hard at his actions and those of this country and applied to become a conscientious objector…

So what? You have met a single guy with an eccentric minority view about the military. For every ex-military person with similar views, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of people who have been in the exact same military, and who have reached completely opposite conclusions.

Telling a story about a single persons's opinions is not a convincing argument about "what's wrong with the military", and his conclusions certainly don't make him braver or smarter than any other member or ex-member of the U.S. armed forces who thinks differently.

The impression I get from this is that you were anti-military long before you have met this "friend", and that his is the only opinion you consider "brave" because it's the only one that conforms to, and reinforces, your already pre-existing world view.

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