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Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

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Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#91
post #41

I really like this idea except for one thing; it would show users a comparison of slow (what they get now) and really slow. But not what they would get if they lived in, say, Seoul. The problem is, most people don't realize that, all things considered, their internet really isn't as fast as it could be. They think it is because they have no basis for comparison. And the ISP's bank on this... literally.

That's what burns me. We already pay ISPs to deliver the data that we request. They should take our money and improve their infrastructure. Instead, they want to get paid again, by e.g. Netflix, and the result would still be basically the same shitty third-world service we get in the US today.

Many of us already get a Slow Lane Demo every day during "prime time" evening hours.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#92
post #27

Why stop at the slow lane? There is nothing preventing ISP gatekeepers from wholeheartedly denying access. Slowness is just the beginning -- the end-goal is making the internet into multiple competing walled gardens where users are treated as silos that require permission to access. The global reach of the internet is at risk here. Imagine if Netflix wasn't accessible to Comcast users from the beginning because they…

Slow is so more infuriating - as perfectly illustrated by this Oatmeal...

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/no_internet

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#93
post #30
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. I do like this idea. However, as one of the minority of people who have disabled js by default, I'd hope this could be done in a way that doesn't break websites.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

It looks like a bunch of the other replies to your query have touched on most of the points I would make, but I thought it might still be worth my response.

The majority of the content I consume online doesn't _need_ js. In the sense that it's easily possible to design websites to display text and writings without needing js. So from a practical standpoint, I think js is mostly unnecessary. There are obviously services which wouldn't be possible without js (e.g., openstreetmaps), and I do un-block js for those sites.

You are of course correct that js is not the only way users can be tracked, however it is one of major components in tracking.

Looking at the EFF's panopticlick [0], with js blocked: > Within our dataset of several million visitors, only one in 57,814 browsers have the same fingerprint as yours. Currently, we estimate that your browser has a fingerprint that conveys 15.82 bits of identifying information.

With js enabled: > Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 4,104,774 tested so far. Currently, we estimate that your browser has a fingerprint that conveys at least 21.97 bits of identifying information.

So even something as simple as disabling javascript turns my online fingerprint from being unique to being one of 5% of users who have used that site. So while disabling js doesn't make one immune to tracking, it does make it more diffuclt.

In summary, for most of my use of the web, js is unnecessary and does more harm (tracking) than good (it's not needed for consuming text). I enable it on a case-by-case basis for some websites, if it's needed. But unless the js is truly critical to the presentation of the information, I won't enable it and I'll likely leave the site. Because, yes, much of the web is broken without js; but that's frequently due to (in my opinion) poor site design which doesn't fail gracefully in the absense of (usually unnecessary) js.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#94
post #36

Can anyone think of any advantages to a non-neutral internet? I can think of a few - Netflix and Skype would work better. Most likely, we'd be able to pay for priority traffic, just like we pay for a large AWS instance. Non-priority traffic might be cheaper than current bandwidth. It would be crazy to suggest all sites be forced to use the same size AWS instance... Some types of traffic are bandwidth sensitive, like…

> Can anyone think of any advantages to a non-neutral internet?

Yes. In the early days there was a competing networking technology called ATM. It provided quality of service (QoS) aspects in the protocol. So, you could prioritize packets, e.g. protocols affected by latency could be prioritized (e.g. VOIP, gaming), while those that weren't could be given a low priority (FTP, email).

The beauty of ATM was that on a relatively low bandwidth connection you could utilize all of your bandwidth and services like VOIP would still work beautifully. TCP/IP still today struggles with this.

So, as a consumer, I'd be happy to pay for QoS so that my VOIP packets had an expressway on my 2Mbps connection. However, that ship (for many) has sailed. With my largely under utilized 50Mbps connection there is no reason to pay for QoS because we've largely solved latency by throwing bandwidth at the problem.

However, with the approach that the FCC/comcast/et al are taking, I see no benefit.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#95
post #36

Can anyone think of any advantages to a non-neutral internet? I can think of a few - Netflix and Skype would work better. Most likely, we'd be able to pay for priority traffic, just like we pay for a large AWS instance. Non-priority traffic might be cheaper than current bandwidth. It would be crazy to suggest all sites be forced to use the same size AWS instance... Some types of traffic are bandwidth sensitive, like…

You are burning an artificial technical straw-man. There is no technical capacity limit at play here. Networking technology has leapfrogged the bandwidth available to consumers many times over, and to boot, it is pretty much infinitely scalable.

So when theres no problem transferring all of Netflix, Skype and BitTorrent simultaneously, why slow any of it? Sure, at times hardware fails, fiber is damaged, and ISPs can feel free to prioritize traffic at that time, we certainly have the technology to do that.

But what is certainly not ok is slowing traffic because you are not willing to invest into your connectivity, investing not even enough to actually deliver all of the meagre bandwidth (100 Mbit is 1995 vintage technology, where in the US can you even get that?) you have sold to consumers.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#96

One main problem with any attempt by a site to slow down its service is that all similar/competitor sites must slow down equally. Otherwise we get the game of one site provider not slowing down (or slowing down as much) because of the incentive: if they are faster, they generate more visits than competitors.

The article, as I understand it, suggested a banner on the site stating why the site is slow, and to get out of the slow lane 'click here'.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#97
post #42
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

Allow me to list a few reasons I run with JS disabled by default: - Poorly written JavaScript that causes my system to stall for a time, to the point where I have to kill all my browser's processes manually; more common than you'd think. - Websites that attempt to mine cryptocurrencies using my browser with JavaScript; without my knowledge or permission. - Then there's XSS and CSRF vulnerabilities that can leverage J…

Mining bitcoins in javascript on someone else's computer. Surely it would be quicker to get the 386 computers out of the landfill and use them than to mine bitcoins in javascript remotely in some botnet of sorts.

I am intrigued. Can you send me a URL of somewhere that will mine bitcoins on my computer?

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#98
post #30
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about something simpler - Make images load slowly using JS. I do like this idea. However, as one of the minority of people who have disabled js by default, I'd hope this could be done in a way that doesn't break websites.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

> why you choose to break your exerience of the web

Because this "experience" is not designed with me (the user) in mind. Most of the times it is created to extract value from me, not to provide it for me. Aside from webapps, which use JavaScript to drive the program doing things useful for the users, JS serves two main purposes:

- so that advertisers can better target ads for me (their ads are mostly worthless, I don't want them anyway)

- so that the website author's sales team can "convert" me easier (I want to be "converted" by value of what they offer, not by cheap "experience" tricks)

JavaScript is mostly detrimental to the main goal I browse web for: to learn, read stuff I care about and participate in meaningful discussions.

Unfortunately Internet today is one big marketing event. The real value is being drowned by all that startups and companies trying to sell me some half-baked nonsolution to my nonproblems.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#99

This would be great and informative and effective, except that the most visible sites* have no incentive to play along with this little song and dance, as they are the ones proliferating anti-net-neutrality for their own private gain. So it will basically just look to people like I'm running a shitty technical job serving my site, most people will think I'm stupid, they won't learn a damn thing about net neutrality o…

Are you arguing that no one saw and thus there was no impact when Wikipedia ran the anti-SOPA blackout?

Further your examples don't make sense. Youtube is owned by Google, which doesn't have a 100% support track record for net-neutrality, but is mostly supportive. Netflix is on the record as completely for net-neutrality -- they are one of the major services cited by ISPs as causing the need for an internet fast lane, which directly impacts Netflix and Netflix consumers (negatively, if that wasn't clear). I don't know about facebook off-hand, but frankly, who cares about facebook's leadership on the web? It would be great for them to join in, the exposure would be great, but I think more people distrust facebook and their support is the internet equivalent of being on the same side of an argument as the KKK.

How about instead of just slowing your sites down arbitrarily you do exactly what wikipedia did -- explain to the user what is going on, and at least force them to click through to the actual, full speed version of your site -- even better, let them see what your site would be like speed-capped and what your site is like now.

Re: Dear Internet: Let’s Demo The Slow Lane

#100
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to say it without being blunt, but I mean no offense, I'm just curious. I've heard of this mythical type of user (no-JS) but never heard their side of the coin before. I dislike ad tracking, information culling, and I think that JavaScript underpins and makes possible many of the things I dislike about the modern web. We agree on that I'm sure. But so does a web browser. So does the operating system…

I only have some second-hand, anecdotal explanations. In my freelancing days (several years ago), I had clients who insisted that their websites work flawlessly without JavaScript -- some would even insist that there was no JavaScript at all. When I asked these clients why they wanted this, the answer would always be because they have disabled JavaScript in their browser, so why would they want any JavaScript on thei…

For those, like me, unfamiliar with the monkey/ladder reference, it's an interesting fable. Read more here http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6828/was-the-exp...
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