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Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

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Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#91

Post by mpyne »

belorn wrote: post #60
rayiner wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every national government in the civilized world needs an intelligence-gathering agency that can operate with some degree of operational secrecy. > I think Congress is unsure about how to proceed on this issue because not all members of Congress are of one mind about what is best for the country in administration of NSA. > The other reason I don't believe this HN hivemind theory of politics is that I by no means as…

Let me add a few others: 1) Every nation should protect their citizens against intelligence gathering from outsiders. 2) Intelligence-gathering must be subject of the rule of law. 3) Military forces must be under democratic control. Surely, neither of those are controversial either?

No, not even in the U.S. where all 3 conditions are in effect (unless you mean to quibble about oligarchy vs. democracy, in which case that's a whole 'nother level of argument).

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#92

Post by mpyne »

josho wrote: post #87
eli wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think perhaps you've been consuming only media that mirrors your own viewpoint. Many people are upset that Snowden "violated his oath," that he took it upon himself to effectively dismantle programs he disagreed with (even if the program was indeed out of line), and that he fled from the consequences of his actions. If you believe public opinion polling, a majority of Americans don't like what he did and think he s…

I am not American, so perhaps it is that the rest of the world sees this differently than American's do. Regarding Snowden fleeing, if you disagree with his choice then give this interview a read[1], it is with the whistleblower for the Pentagon papers. The opinion is that if Snowden didn't flee in today's climate then he likely would have ended up in isolation or Guantanamo. As an outsider to the US it is interestin…

> The opinion is that if Snowden didn't flee in today's climate then he likely would have ended up in isolation or Guantanamo.

That's his opinion, and it's unfounded IMHO. Actual terrorists are increasingly and deliberately put on public trial in New York, and Bradley (now Chelsea) Manning got his (now her) trial as well.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#93

Post by mpyne »

danielweber wrote: post #51
krapp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind another point - believing Snowden needs to stand trial doesn't necessarily presume a belief that he's guilty, or should be punished, either. Americans also tend to believe the justice system works as advertised.

As a matter of order, people should only stand trial if the government legitimately believes them guilty and the government believes it can prove this to a jury. Trials aren't for finding out facts or uncovering the truth. They are the formal processes that a government must do after deciding that a citizen deserves punishment to actually effect their decision. minor edits

This was be one of the easiest trials the government has ever had to put on though. Snowden admitted what he did himself, after all.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#94

Post by mpyne »

couchand wrote: post #59
Involute wrote: post #45

As far as I can tell, Clapper was asked about a classified program during an open session of Congress. Confronted with a conflict between his oath to tell the truth and his obligation to preserve the secrecy of the program, he chose the latter and corrected his testimony later in private. Maybe I'm misconstruing what happened, but, if not, why is this controversial?

The legitimate response in such a situation is to officially dodge the question. It doesn't even have to be public since they're given the questions in advance and have veto power. But Clapper went before Congress explicitly allowing them to ask him about this program and knowingly lied about it. What's unfortunate is that it's not controversial. It seems Clapper has the backing of a pretty big group in Congress.

> The legitimate response in such a situation is to officially dodge the question.

That is absolutely, 100% not the case. Dodging the question, for this particular question is as much a leak of classified information as giving up the answer directly.

This is by the same principle used by hacktivists called the "warrant canary", which they think they invented: But the same thing happened to a CIA director (Helms?) in the 1970s and he did the same thing because the same principle applied back then too.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#95

Post by sanderjd »

couchand wrote: post #63
sanderjd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to stand there and take it, but sometimes it is better if you do. You don't know that he wouldn't be around right now. I happen to think that he would still be around, but certainly his life would be more difficult. But I also think he'd be more "popular".

Interesting trade-off: living in exile but invited to video conference at every big name event and helping direct the course of the national security discussion, or in solitary confinement in Guantanamo but more "popular" I'd say Snowden made the right choice.

While I think the "solitary confinement in Guantanamo" assumption is probably off-base, certainly he'd be in a tough situation somewhere, and he probably did make the right choice. I definitely wouldn't have had anywhere near the courage he has shown in his whistleblowing, let alone the courage it would take to face the punishment.

Nonetheless, I'll expand on what I meant by "popular"; in the mainstream his flight is seen as evidence of guilt, and the particular countries to which he fled cast even more of a shadow on his intentions. Lots of people I've talked to think he must be an enemy because he fled. Martyrdom is always terrible for the martyr but often better for the martyr's ideology than the alternative. You're definitely right that he's having a continued impact on the discussion, and perhaps that does make his exile a net positive for his ideology. But the people I know who think he's a traitor who betrayed his country before seeking asylum with its enemies don't tend to listen to what he has to say.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#96

Post by dragontamer »

bediger4000 wrote: post #73
tormeh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would lose wars, basically. Now, this matters less than it used to in this age of the nuclear bomb, but knowing what other nations are doing and planning is still useful in trade and technology. Knowing more about the market than others means you get better deals and China isn't the only nation doing industrial espionage. Terrorism? It's a pretty pedestrian intelligence agency whose primary aim is to prevent terro…

It would lose wars, basically How do we know this? This strikes me as an assertion without evidence. Are there examples? It also strikes me that the secrecy more often gets used to conceal career-ending mistakes and cost overruns, at least in the USA. Has anybody done an honest assessment of secrecy?

Is Russia planning to invade the Ukraine? What are their plans? Are the "protests" in the Ukraine Russian-backed or not? Do they have greater plans to push out west, or are Russia's plans legitimate in the region?

These questions can be answered with good-old fashioned spying, and nothing else. Russia is not going to give us their gameplan on a silver platter.

And when we do learn Russia's gameplan, it would be best if we kept that fact secret. We can't have Russia knowing that we know their gameplan during the negotiation process.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#97

Post by tormeh »

mpyne wrote: post #89
resu_nimda wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China isn't the only nation doing industrial espionage. Yeah, this is a common argument, the intelligence arms race. It's just...we had the nuclear arms race, which we eventually realized was folly and really could only result in negative impact to humanity, so we started moving towards disarmament...only to start the cycle over again with digital information gathering, which is a lot easier to hide than a nuclear we…

> It's just...we had the nuclear arms race, which we eventually realized was folly and really could only result in negative impact to humanity, so we started moving towards disarmament We have not started moving toward disarmament. Just ask Iran and North Korea. If anything, what happened to Libya and Ukraine after they gave up existing nuclear weapons will hurt nuclear non-proliferation even further. And that's not…

Russia isn't hostile to the west. It's easy to think that everything a foreign country does is about "us". Putin needs an external enemy and a national narrative to support him. It's all domestic policy. We're just annoying background noise. What Putin wants is to stay in charge of his kleptocracy for as long as possible. He doesn't give a shit about the US.

It's the Russian equivalent of American currency disputes with China. While there is truth to the claims of an undervalued yuan it's really overblown. It's about identity politics and feelings. China just happened to be a convenient target.

To the downvoter: Do you think Putin just now found out he is homophobic? That his claims that NGOs with foreign ties are foreign agents aiming to destabilize the country are real? No, it's all theater, scaremongering and scapegoating.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#99

Post by anonbanker »

The short answer: because his written response, and the committee's acceptance of his written response, absolved him of any criminal wrongdoing caused by his testimony.

A little known fact: under UCC and UNCITRAL, you have 72 hours to modify any contracts you make in court via private correspondence. With 3 days to receive, and 3 days to send a response (and one day for a Sunday) tacked on. If the other party goes silent afterwards (as the committee did), clapper can use that silence as tacit acquiescence to his modified statements. In this case, the senate committee accepted that "least untruthful" was considered sufficient reason to make false public statements. Clapper brought that private agreement public via the press, and now it's nicely cemented in stone, as a valid process that anyone else can use in case they're ever caught lying to congress.

Someone really should be teaching Ed Snowden contract and trade law. I bet he'd pick it up rather quickly, and it'd make his current situation easier to deal with.

Re: Snowden: Why hasn’t DNI Clapper been punished for lying to Congress?

#100

Post by zevyoura »

mpyne wrote: post #92
josho wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not American, so perhaps it is that the rest of the world sees this differently than American's do. Regarding Snowden fleeing, if you disagree with his choice then give this interview a read[1], it is with the whistleblower for the Pentagon papers. The opinion is that if Snowden didn't flee in today's climate then he likely would have ended up in isolation or Guantanamo. As an outsider to the US it is interestin…

> The opinion is that if Snowden didn't flee in today's climate then he likely would have ended up in isolation or Guantanamo. That's his opinion, and it's unfounded IMHO. Actual terrorists are increasingly and deliberately put on public trial in New York, and Bradley (now Chelsea) Manning got his (now her) trial as well.

Manning was held in effective solitary confinement for 9 months.
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