The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea • Hacker News Board

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#91

Post by lostlogin » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 4:44 AM UTC

1ris wrote: post #52

gedrap wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> most modern day guys could never even imagine. Oh no need for that. Grab a local news paper, check the crime section. 'modern day guys' are not so smart and innocent, are they?

My gradma digged trenches and stacked bodies, at the age of 14 or 15. Modern day guies don't do that, or something similar. War time is dramatical different.

I'm not so sure. I can remember the feeling I got when the news during the Iraq war showed a couple of kids laughing like it was a big joke and listening to Metallica as they shelled Fallujah. In the US 40% of active duty members are less than 25 according. Humans have a long history of getting their young ones to do their dirty work. http://www.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2011_Demo...

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#92

Post by brc » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 6:11 AM UTC

Luc wrote: post #8

Not just in the Baltic Sea. There's a dump of WWI poison gas grenades 2km off the Belgian coast, buried in the sand. You can see the marker buoys from the beach. Here's a little map of the area: http://www.wereldoorlog1418.nl/gasoorlog/paardenmarkt.html EDIT: Then there's the stuff on land. In Belgium they still recuperate between 100 and 200 tons of ammunition per year. Farmers post them by the side of the road for…

A friend of mine is leading the redevelopment of some beachside land that was a WW2 target range.

Somehow I don't think its former life will make it into the glossy marketing brochures. The whole area has been checked with metal detectors though, so I doubt any surprises will show up.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#93

Post by Carwajalca » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 6:15 AM UTC

infinite8s wrote: post #57

refurb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with chemical weapons is that they are very reactive. Mustard gas would react with the organics floating around in the ocean very quickly. As for the hydrolysis product of mustard gas, thiodiethanol, it's not very toxic. The MSDS claims acute toxicity in rates starts around 6.5g/kg. So a human would need to consume ~500g in order to see toxicity. Also, thiodiethanol is quite reactive itself. It would likely…

Yeah, given the existence of life at deep-sea sulfuric vents, I wouldn't be surprised if the newly evolved bioorganisms were colonizing the containers at their leakage points.

There are no deep-sea sulfuric vents in the Baltic Sea.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#94

Post by marshray » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 7:00 AM UTC

Carwajalca wrote: post #93

infinite8s wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, given the existence of life at deep-sea sulfuric vents, I wouldn't be surprised if the newly evolved bioorganisms were colonizing the containers at their leakage points.

There are no deep-sea sulfuric vents in the Baltic Sea.

The point is the ocean is known to contain bacteria which can metabolize chemical sources in the form of sulfur compounds. There's a chance that any slowly leaking CS munitions in the Baltic Sea could host bacterial colonies which break down these compounds.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#95

Post by marshray » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 7:53 AM UTC

NAFV_P wrote: post #35

frik wrote: post #14

Don't forget the atomic bombs and H-bombs: * Dozens of Atomic Warheads Lost In Sea by Superpowers, Study Says: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/06/07/us/dozens-of-atomic-warhea... * Missing for 50 years - US nuclear bomb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8107908.stm

The first link you posted mentions the USS Iowa Gun Turret explosion, another shocking tale of negligence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion

Fascinating read. Thanks.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#96

Post by Filligree » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 8:27 AM UTC

awj wrote: post #64

alister wrote: post #31

65,000 tonnes of chemical sounds humongous, but picturing the volume makes it look a lot smaller (not trying to diminish the potential gravity of the problem). Assume the chemicals have a density of 1 g/cm^3, the same as water, which seems reasonable for organic liquids and such. Then a cubic meter weighs a metric tonne. So 65,000 tonnes is the same as a cube that is 40 meters on a side. Another visualization: 1/5 of…

It may sound small by volume, but it sounds pretty big by potential effect. Especially if we're talking about compounds that can bioaccumulate and move up the food chain. We worry about the mercury content of tuna, what happens when the tuna has an appreciable amount of whatever-mustard-gas-breaks-down-into?

Thiodiglycol. It's not a serious issue, I'm more worried about the mustard gas.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#97

Post by digitalengineer » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 8:59 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #28

danohuiginn wrote: post #13

The shelf life of most chemical weapons is fairly short -- and tends to be shorter the nastier they are. We're mainly talking mustard gas. Germany did use nerve gases tabun, sarin, and soman [1]. But nerve gases degrade after a period of a few weeks to a few years. I'm not sure what they degrade into, admittedly, and I doubt it's nice. Mustard gas lasts longer, but is also much less potent. Military use is about 1 to…

Gulf of Mexico is a big dumping ground too http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/28/14141378-world-wa... thirty plus million pounds of assorted weaponary

Seems to be the way we dump that stuff. Waters of Italy house a time-bomb as well. http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/21/troubled-waters-the-hidde...

Also: Belgium waters have been a dumping ground for (mustard?)gas.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#98

Post by mathattack » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 10:28 AM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #77

mathattack wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I had thought of "We may have to fight another war" but not that it would be too hard to dig a very big hole and bury them under a mile of concrete. (Do with them whatever we do with nuclear waste - granted we didn't have much nuclear waste in 1945)

We should also note that a lot of these weapons -- particularly, the ones seized from the Nazis -- were advanced beyond the technical understanding of the generals who'd seized them. These bombs and rockets, including their chemical propellants, oxidizers, and payloads, were designed by the world's top rocket scientists, in an era where perhaps a few dozen of those people even existed. Disposing of these things safel…

Good points. Easy to take the history for granted.

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#99

Post by sambeau » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 12:11 PM UTC

Re: The ticking time-bomb at the bottom of the Baltic Sea

#100

Post by jonnathanson » Tue, Apr 22, 2014, 8:59 PM UTC

mathattack wrote: post #98

jonnathanson wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should also note that a lot of these weapons -- particularly, the ones seized from the Nazis -- were advanced beyond the technical understanding of the generals who'd seized them. These bombs and rockets, including their chemical propellants, oxidizers, and payloads, were designed by the world's top rocket scientists, in an era where perhaps a few dozen of those people even existed. Disposing of these things safel…

Good points. Easy to take the history for granted.

Thanks, and very sorry for the rambling on this topic! I just have a fascination with the post-WW2 / early Cold War period.