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How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

jeffknupp.com

91–100 of 219 posts

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#91

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

The problem is there's as many ideas of what "devops" means as there are people saying "devops". The concept of devops as you just described it makes absolutely no sense to me for example. Operations has always been about automation. CFengine has been around for a long time. So to me, your version of devops just seems like a fad buzzword applied to the same old same old.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was (Unix) ops ever not coding? I honestly don't know, I haven't been around that long. But all the old guys I know were "perl is unix duct tape" ops guys. The older, more foundational problems were getting automated back then. Now that they're solved problems, and combined with more and more people running large and/or virtual infrastructure, a new problem domain exists around spinning up machines and deployment. Th…

It's about more than just "unix duct tape". It's about 'Infrastructure as Code', treating servers like programming objects. It's about using configuration management tools like Chef and Puppet instead of writing bash scripts which only work on one system.

[deleted]

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#93
The problem with DevOps is that it's a meaningless term. Look at all the comments here, all starting off with what "DevOps is," or "Devops isn't." Instances of people arguing past each other based on different interpretations.

You can't have a fruitful discussion when everybody uses it differently.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#94
DevOps is a rather overloaded term at the moment. I've seen it refer to any of the following:

- Encouraging collaboration between your Dev, Ops, and QA teams, with some cross-training so they can work together better

- Merging those teams under the same manager to try to improve that collaboration

- Making your developers responsible for all those roles, and never hiring a dedicated sysadmin or QA engineer

I personally think any of those is fine. Startups will err toward having fewer people and all of them be developers, while in a larger company it probably makes sense to specialize more and make "DevOps" mean close collaboration between those teams.

Of course, I've also seen "DevOps" as a job title for what would have previously been a "system administrator" or "site reliability engineer", and I have much less patience for that. :) Occasionally I see a job posting for a role that is actually dev + ops, but most often a "DevOps" posting means "we need a sysadmin, but we don't think sysadmins are cool enough to work here."

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#95

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

well, in many places DevOps is implemented as "developers on PagerDuty". When I (the developer) have to be on-call for 7 day rotations, phone by bedside, paged at all hours, then I'm most definitely acting as operations - probably NOT what I signed up for. And, contrary to the stated intentions, I've directly observed developers making crappy, band-aid fixes to ongoing production problems in the interest of "making t…

Sounds like somebody in the hierarchy doesn't quite "get it".

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#96

DevOps isn't amount making Developers be Ops guys. It's about the fact that automation eats everything, and a significant part of 'ops' is now coding. A DevOps person isn't someone who develops, and who does Ops. It's someone who does only Ops, but through Development. It's not about start ups vs Enterprise, it's about 1 person writing programs or 5 people doing things by hand.

At least in my world view this is a much better definition of DevOps. Folks who make the world run, and through automation can keep a larger portion of the world spinning. It requires someone who can analyze failures, figure out how to predict and mitigate them, and then code automation to do so.

Oddly this is much more like the 'developers' of old. If you sat down at a workstation you needed to know how to be your own system administrator, and you needed to write code.

Automation has enabled a fairly new class of engineer which I think of as someone who has no idea how the pieces all fit together but they can assemble them with the help of a framework and a toolkit into useful products. They become experts at debugging the toolkit and framework but have little knowledge of how everything else actually works.

The problem with this new type of coder is that they can write syntactically correct impossible programs. I didn't understand that until I taught myself VHDL (a hardware description language). VHDL was the first "language" that I knew where you could write syntactically correct "code" which could not be synthesized into hardware. The language expressiveness exceeded the hardware's capabilities (and sometimes you would need to have a time machine). Imagine a computer language where 1/0 was a legitimate statement, not caught by the compiler, but always blew up in your executable.

So we have folks who can write code that is grossly inefficient or broken on "real" systems.

Google had started a program when I was there to have developers spend time in SRE (their DevOps organization) and it was to invest in them the understanding of what went on in the whole stack so they could write better products. The famous 'times every programmer should know' by Jeff Dean was another such tool. You cannot get too far away from the systems that are going to run your code if you want to write performant code.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#97
post #27

This article is pretty ignorant. I don't think most developers have the capability to be sysadmins or QA. Vice versa, too, quite often. Joe developer ain't that special. Devops is about taking moving the infrastructure into its own configuration-managed artifact, taking lessons from programming and computer science, and coming out with its own engineering rigor. If you want your devs to operate builds/infrastructure/…

>I don't think most developers have the capability to be sysadmins or QA.

No, but they tend to think they can.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was (Unix) ops ever not coding? I honestly don't know, I haven't been around that long. But all the old guys I know were "perl is unix duct tape" ops guys. The older, more foundational problems were getting automated back then. Now that they're solved problems, and combined with more and more people running large and/or virtual infrastructure, a new problem domain exists around spinning up machines and deployment. Th…

It's about more than just "unix duct tape". It's about 'Infrastructure as Code', treating servers like programming objects. It's about using configuration management tools like Chef and Puppet instead of writing bash scripts which only work on one system.

"DevOps" here, by which I mean an IT Ops Manager/Linux Admin/Network Admin doing this for more than a decade.

Nothing you described is outside of the realm of what your typical linux admin does. I don't have to be a senior python dev to do my job, and I've managed 5500+ virtual machines by myself (puppet/chef, bash, some python, persistent data/object storage).

Agree with the author; just shoving more hats onto less people.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#99
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was (Unix) ops ever not coding? I honestly don't know, I haven't been around that long. But all the old guys I know were "perl is unix duct tape" ops guys. The older, more foundational problems were getting automated back then. Now that they're solved problems, and combined with more and more people running large and/or virtual infrastructure, a new problem domain exists around spinning up machines and deployment. Th…

Yes, the devops movement is silly. In the 90s when I started, every SA knew, and used, Perl and C in their daily jobs. Then dotcom happened and every kid with a Linux box in their bedroom put themselves about as a SA. And in the 10s people think SAs who code is an amazing new invention. And back in the 60s, IBM had "systems programmers"... Same thing.

It wasn't really that clear-cut. I started in Ops in the '90s, too, in SV, and there were plenty of SAs I knew who were proud of the fact that they weren't coders. Yes, they knew the shell, and maybe they knew a tiny bit of Perl. But as a guy who was an SA and a coder (Perl, C) I was a rarity.

I still am, but the "DevOps Movement" is here to point out that this artificial dichotomy is considered harmful.

Re: How 'DevOps' Is Killing The Developer

#100
post #7

In my own experience I don't think developers were ever pushed to become devops (as the article asserts). Instead, about 40% what was called 'sys admins' were pushed to become devops. The 'sys admin who knew cfengine' became a 'devops person who knew ansible'. Deploys and cloud APIs just became another thing to automate. The bottom 60% - the shit ones who got paid 120,000GBP to copy paste commands they didn't underst…

>The bottom 60% ... left the industry

I wish. They are still here and still copy+pasting commands they don't understand. The entire linux world is still dominated by these people. The whole "howto" culture is still very much alive and kicking.

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