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Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

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Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#91

Post by nandhp »

mschuster91 wrote: post #8

A quick google for the source code only revealed http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/archive/index.php/t-10748.htm... - apparently Tesla has never released the source code of the "modified Ubuntu" they're using. Whoops. Also, looks like Tesla has got international deals with mobile carriers for data flatrates. I'm looking forward to see the first guy stream youtube or youp*rn on the dashboard :D

Moreover, it's my understanding that if there's any GPLv3 software on the Tesla, you have the right to receive installation instructions that allow you to install a modified version of that software on your Tesla. But Tesla is not required to honor the warranty of Teslas whose software has been modified.

I wonder if they ship coreutils?

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#92

Post by the_ancient »

threeseed wrote: post #46
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

I guess the point is that signed binaries aren't full proof. Look at how jail breakers have been able to continually defeat the iOS security controls over the years. And surely Apple has a larger and more experienced development team than Tesla.

Why would you believe that?

Apple is mainly a Design firm, they are good at making things look pretty... not much else..

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#93

Post by gcr »

gcr wrote: post #88
anologwintermut wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, the segregation between CAN buses is not nearly as good as you would think. ONSTAR, for example, sits on the drive critical bus (and is exploitable). Of course, this is not on a Tesla, but still. http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf

A few years back, a joint UW-UCSD team showed that car systems are remotely exploitable. They were able to literally call the car's cell phone number and control the brakes/gas/door locks remotely. http://youtu.be/bHfOziIwXic

(oops, sorry about gratuitous use of "literally" -- i should learn not to editorialize better)

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#95

Post by mdorazio »

rjsw wrote: post #85
mdorazio wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for pointing this out. A few additional notes on the way most modern car electronics work: 1) The entertainment system generally has read-only access to the CAN bus via an intermediary DCU. Even if you were able to "jailbreak" it, you wouldn't be able to modify the CAN. 2) The control unit(s) that actually have the ability to modify things like brakes, maximum speed settings, etc. are ECUs ( http://en.wikip…

There isn't any reason why the entertainment system couldn't reprogram the ECUs, I have never seen a read-only CAN controller so the hardware will be able to write to the CAN bus. The OBD-II diagnostic connector provides full access to the CAN bus anyway so once you are inside the vehicle there isn't much security. You could even run the service diagnostics on the entertainment system and avoid the need for extra har…

At least with the auto manufacturers I've worked with the entertainment system is controlled by a DCU, which is in turn connected to the CAN controller. It is the DCU that limits the access to be read-only. It may be possible to alter the firmware of the DCU to allow two-way access, but it would not be easy.

100% agree with you that if you're already inside the car security of the entertainment system is a moot point. There are attack vectors you could use that bypass software controls entirely.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#96

Post by DanBC »

ferongr wrote: post #90
rdl wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assassination via physical-access car hacking (cutting brake lines, etc.) has been around for a long time. Seems like a small jump to electronic.

Has there ever been a successful assassination using this method? If some cut my brake lines I would know about it the moment I started the engine and applied the service brakes while putting the car into drive/releasing the e-brake, or become aware of it while maneuvering out of a parking space at speeds under 5mph.

The theory is that the brake lines are weakened and fail at some point during the journey.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#97

Post by miah_ »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #41

I am very amused that people in this thread assume that this ethernet port allows tinkering with the automotive systems. Automotive systems communicate over a CAN [1] bus, not ethernet. In fact, this bus is usually physically separated between drive-critical bus (which controls things like ABS) and "comfort" bus (such as electric window controls, central door locks, wheel-mounted audio controls). Ethernet has none of…

Super interesting. There was this hack from a few months ago that involved messing with items on the CAN bus. I think they get into more of the details;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqe6S6m73Zw

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#98

Post by kybernetikos »

Vespasian wrote: post #73
jnbiche wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's a mighty hacker-unfriendly stance to take for a company whose client base is made up of a disproportionately large number of engineers and computer scientists, many of whom will doubtless be curious as to the inner workings of their car computer systems. I mean, could you imagine if a car manufacturer took this attitude toward car owners who were exploring the car's transmission, which is clearly just as c…

I think there is a difference between hacking (or even exploring) something like a phone, game console or router and a car, plane or any other thing that can immediately put in danger the live and health of many unrelated persons. Therefore I thinks Tesla acts as responsible as they should when detecting and reacting upon active (as opposed to passively analyzing radio transmissions) manipulation of their cars inner…

> Tesla... of their cars

This is the key point. If I've bought it, the car does not belong to Tesla anymore and they have no valid reason to be policing what the owner of the car is doing with it. If there should be rules against modification, then that should be the purview of vehicle licensing, not Tesla (and while you're at it, you should probably outlaw people maintaining their own cars or building them from scratch too.) The most that is reasonable is for them to refuse to honor the warranty if I've damaged it while modifying.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#99

Post by bloat »

kybernetikos wrote: post #98
Vespasian wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a difference between hacking (or even exploring) something like a phone, game console or router and a car, plane or any other thing that can immediately put in danger the live and health of many unrelated persons. Therefore I thinks Tesla acts as responsible as they should when detecting and reacting upon active (as opposed to passively analyzing radio transmissions) manipulation of their cars inner…

> Tesla... of their cars This is the key point. If I've bought it, the car does not belong to Tesla anymore and they have no valid reason to be policing what the owner of the car is doing with it. If there should be rules against modification, then that should be the purview of vehicle licensing, not Tesla (and while you're at it, you should probably outlaw people maintaining their own cars or building them from scra…

You don't have to outlaw homebrew vehicles. The car already has to pass an inspection to be allowed on the road. I guess, if it doesn't already, that the inspection will soon have to include that any safety critical software is unmodified. And when people are making their own fly by wire cars, and writing their own software - who knows how they'll certify it.

Re: Tesla Model S Ethernet Network Explored

#100

Post by [deleted] »

sounds wrote: post #63
mschuster91 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, it is enough to distribute any binary made with GPL source code to have an obligation to publish the code. As soon as you use GPL code, no matter if you modify it or not, you have to re-distribute the source code you used.

"The source code you used" which you obtained from GPL sources. You do not have to distribute proprietary source code which has not been incorporated into the GPL code (the definition of this varies depending on whether the GPL code is GPL, LGPL, etc.)

[deleted]
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