Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

nathanmarz.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 259 posts

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#91

Post by crusso »

mh_yam wrote: post #80
crusso wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it focuses on individual productivity This is one of those "beat the drum" issues on HN where we keep seeing article after article trying to drive the same one-sided point home. When I see this as the top article on HN, I just have to wonder if many of the people who come to HN are looking to disrupt the startup community. I've worked in environments that run the gamut from individual offices, to cubes, to small work…

"Maybe one or two in ten people have trouble working in that environment because they're too distracted." How do you know? Did you actually ask everyone "Do you have trouble working in this environment because of the distractions?" People are afraid of being seen as "anti-team" and "anti-open plan", and they won't tell you the truth. And others fake it, even if they really hate working in such an environment (I'm one…

Did you actually ask everyone

Yeah, I did communicate with people about the efficacy of the working environment. Plus, for the past 12 years or so, everyone I've worked with has had a laptop that they could always (and did at times) take to quiet places when they needed alone time. They self-identified as needing quiet. Most others self-identified as liking the more collaborative working spaces.

I'm one of them

If you're working in an environment that is unproductive for you (that you hate) and you're not able to say something, then you should consider departing from it or addressing your own inability to have frank conversations with the people for whom you work.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#92

Post by bmj »

Goladus wrote: post #36
stephencanon wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently you haven't seen the Pixar buildings; it's pretty clear that little of their design was guided by financial constraints. They are about as far as it's possible to get away from typical cheap office construction.

There are always financial concerns. Just because you have a huge budget doesn't mean you don't min-max where possible.

Or perhaps, the two concerns met in the middle? "How do we achieve $design_feature while perhaps saving a bit budget?"

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#93

Post by iSnow »

jimmaswell wrote: post #47
abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

I'd hate having everyone able to stare at my screen all the time. It'd make me feel uneasy and less productive for sure.

I think the sad truth is that it makes you uneasy and more productive. But I know I hate it too.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#94

Post by riggins »

Robin_Message wrote: post #37
atlantic wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a developer, I've worked for years both in open-plan spaces and in individual offices. My experience is that productivity is incomparably better in an individual office. There was no upside to open-plan; just constant interruption and frustration.

> constant interruption and frustration. The point of the post you are replying to is that the "constant interruption and frustration" enables other developers to be more productive, raising the overall productivity of the team. Also, you probably remember the times when you were interrupted and it was annoying strongly, but do you remember the times you interrupted someone else and saved valuable time?

here's an almost comical excerpt from the Cornell study

http://iwsp.human.cornell.edu/file_uploads/offices1_12382569...

The data showed that younger workers liked these kinds of offices more than older workers. The reason was instructive: they felt they could learn more from their “officemates” in this kind of office. This makes sense, since in interviews a common reason for wanting to join a company was the opportunity to work with “great” people. Having great people around, whom you rarely see and even more rarely talk to, is not of real value. Respondents talked about the much greater learning opportunities in a more open environment. Older respondents, in contrast, found it harder to concentrate and more disruptive. It also seemed the case that older respondents were simply comfortable with how they had learned to do things over a number of years, and did well.

Hmm, that's one interpretation.

Here's a simpler interpretation.

Younger workers generally aren't going to know what they're doing and need to ask questions, so being able to ask questions is important to them. Older workers already know what they're doing and don't need to ask as many questions, so they don't really get anything out of it.

This BTW, squares exactly with my experience. All the benefit of open floor plans go to employees with the least expertise at the expense of the employees with the most expertise.

If you're the most talented, expert employee in an office, in general there's not going to be anyone in the office that can answer your questions, so an open office doesn't buy you anything.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#95

Post by gjm11 »

robinhouston wrote: post #26

“Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more work done today and tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on; all the hard work you do is sort of tangential in impo…

Notice that Hamming takes it for granted that everyone has an office; the only question is "office with closed door, or office with open door?".

This is a very different question from "offices or open plan?".

(My own preference is one I've seen others express here: rooms for groups of roughly 4-10 people, private rooms for intense concentration and private meetings, and some communal space.)

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#96

Post by keithpeter »

robinhouston wrote: post #26

“Another trait, it took me a while to notice. I noticed the following facts about people who work with the door open or the door closed. I notice that if you have the door to your office closed, you get more work done today and tomorrow, and you are more productive than most. But 10 years later somehow you don't know quite know what problems are worth working on; all the hard work you do is sort of tangential in impo…

Tea and cake at 3pm in the 'museum'.

That was the rule in the Physics department I spent a little time in. 'Tea' involved about 40 researchers in a large room on couches and armchairs arranged (and rearranged) in small groups. You were expected to share problems, findings, ideas, and listen. Room had no blackboards but plenty of paper napkins.

Broke up around 4pm most days but sometimes went on much longer.

Leaders used to hear a problem and say things like "talk to Robin. He's been working on conditionally convergent series", so you did, and it helped.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#97

Post by alistairSH »

Can anybody comment on the usefulness of open plan space when there is a wide range of programmer ability? I can see if everybody on the team is a rock star that the benefits of open space could be smaller. But, what if you have a mix of senior engineers and junior developers (who presumably need more active mentoring)?

I ask because in my current role, I'm the product architect for a large web application. In addition to the usual design and development tasks, part of this role is bringing new development teams up to speed on technologies they have not used before. I find it much easier to be in a team room with those teams, they get immediate feedback, can ask questions, etc. If I was in an office or cube, I'd have a constant stream of emails from individuals to answer.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#98

Post by ben336 »

I don't have strong opinions on whether open floor plans are good and bad but I strongly disagree with "The primary task of a programmer is writing code, which involves sitting at a desk and thinking and typing."

The primary role of a programmer is to solve the technical problems an organization is facing. This often involves writing code. It also involves understanding problems and planning solutions that scale across an organization.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#99

Post by mh_yam »

crusso wrote: post #91
mh_yam wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe one or two in ten people have trouble working in that environment because they're too distracted." How do you know? Did you actually ask everyone "Do you have trouble working in this environment because of the distractions?" People are afraid of being seen as "anti-team" and "anti-open plan", and they won't tell you the truth. And others fake it, even if they really hate working in such an environment (I'm one…

Did you actually ask everyone Yeah, I did communicate with people about the efficacy of the working environment. Plus, for the past 12 years or so, everyone I've worked with has had a laptop that they could always (and did at times) take to quiet places when they needed alone time. They self-identified as needing quiet. Most others self-identified as liking the more collaborative working spaces. I'm one of them If yo…

Having the ability to retreat to a quiet area is critical. Many people don't have the option of going to a 'quiet room'. It's just one big, chaotic workspace.

Personally I have discussed this with coworkers/managers, but the environment is not going to change. Wherever I go next, I'll be on the lookout for quiet&privacy.

Re: The inexplicable rise of open floor plans in tech companies

#100

Post by prawks »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #50
abalone wrote: post #10

Suffers from the same flaw as most critiques of open plan: it focuses on individual productivity while failing to understand how it contributes to team productivity. Cornell did a study of open plan awhile back that you should all read. I posted it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507404 The misunderstanding here is that it's just about serendipitously "overhearing" other conversations. 1. Open plan makes…

But it's not just about personal productivity, it's also about enjoying your work. Spending a day in the noise, getting distracted, and simply unable to get your head down and finish the one task you're assigned to gets highly annoying and draining. Which has negative effects on that person and the team as a whole; poor mood (and attitude by extension), bad work, and a higher inclination to simply pack up and leave.…

In the Cornell study cited, it specifically discusses that open plans should be fit for purpose. "There's no silver bullet."

I would love to be able to sit around my coworkers while I answer emails, catch up on the projects going on around me, bounce ideas off of people, etc. and then have a designated, quieter space to do "heads-down" work.

Why can't you have both?

Post reply on HN