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The Drugging Of The American Boy

esquire.com

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Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#91
post #76
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's probably not that black and white but a comparison with heart disease isn't a fair one. The grandparent post does make a point. If such a large proportion of the population has a 'condition' is it really a condition or perhaps just how we (as a species) are? Especially in the case of something that's psychiatric/psychological. For example, I've heard estimates that around 10% of the population is ho…

Being gay or left-handed doesn't inherently impact your quality of life. Not being able to concentrate on anything does. So even if it were part of the normal range we should work on fixing it, like we do for myopia.

Being gay or left-handed doesn't inherently impact your quality of life.

It does if everyone else is telling you that you're abnormal (and need to be 'fixed'). That was the point of using those examples.

Not being able to concentrate on anything does.

Only if society has defined as valuable the ability to do only one thing, without distraction, for whatever period of time. Therefore, anyone who cannot do this must be 'broken' somehow.

So even if it were part of the normal range we should work on fixing it, like we do for myopia.

The first part of your sentence doesn't make sense. If it's 'normal' then by definition it isn't broken (and therefore doesn't require fixing). For the myopia example, most people 'fix' it by wearing glasses or contacts, which are non-permanent and do not mess with brain chemistry. Indeed, some people I know with myopia only bother with glasses when driving and cope just fine without for the rest of the time. Of course, measuring the degree of myopia is very easy so drawing a line between 'has some difficulty' vs 'severely impaired' is a lot more clear cut. In one case, we can consider glasses as an augmentation to something that is normal, whereas in the other we've fixing something that's broken.

I'm not suggesting that ADHD isn't a problem. Merely that we should exercise some caution before we label some things (people?) as broken, when perhaps they are not.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#92
post #91
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being gay or left-handed doesn't inherently impact your quality of life. Not being able to concentrate on anything does. So even if it were part of the normal range we should work on fixing it, like we do for myopia.

Being gay or left-handed doesn't inherently impact your quality of life. It does if everyone else is telling you that you're abnormal (and need to be 'fixed'). That was the point of using those examples. Not being able to concentrate on anything does. Only if society has defined as valuable the ability to do only one thing, without distraction, for whatever period of time. Therefore, anyone who cannot do this must be…

It does if everyone else is telling you that you're abnormal (and need to be 'fixed'). That was the point of using those examples.

That's why I used the word 'inherently'. People telling you you're abnormal is not inherent to those conditions.

Only if society has defined as valuable the ability to do only one thing, without distraction, for whatever period of time. Therefore, anyone who cannot do this must be 'broken' somehow.

ADHD doesn't interfere with your life because other people are making fun of the fact you can't sit still. It interferes with your life because it's very difficult to be productive in any way if you can't concentrate for whatever period of time and being productive is what's valuable to society.

I have mild myopia and I don't feel any resentment to my optometrist for labeling me broken. I'm just happy he augmented/fixed me so I can read signs at a distance. And unless/until we have proof that prescribing Adderall is so dangerous that it's not worth the gains, then I don't see a problem treating it the same as contact lenses.

I'm not suggesting that ADHD isn't a problem. Merely that we should exercise some caution before we label some things (people?) as broken, when perhaps they are not.

Well, clearly they thought they were broken somehow when they went to the doctor with concerns about their attention spans, no?

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#93
post #92
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being gay or left-handed doesn't inherently impact your quality of life. It does if everyone else is telling you that you're abnormal (and need to be 'fixed'). That was the point of using those examples. Not being able to concentrate on anything does. Only if society has defined as valuable the ability to do only one thing, without distraction, for whatever period of time. Therefore, anyone who cannot do this must be…

It does if everyone else is telling you that you're abnormal (and need to be 'fixed'). That was the point of using those examples. That's why I used the word 'inherently'. People telling you you're abnormal is not inherent to those conditions. Only if society has defined as valuable the ability to do only one thing, without distraction, for whatever period of time. Therefore, anyone who cannot do this must be 'broken…

> It interferes with your life because it's very difficult to be productive in any way if you can't concentrate for whatever period of time and being productive is what's valuable to society.

By this reasoning, anything that reduces productivity as currently valued by schools acting a proxy for employers is a candidate for treatment.

Examples include: questioning authority, emotion, and passion for things whose value has not yet become apparent.

Other problems include the notion that schools today have the ability to judge what kind of people we will need to be in the future.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#94
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neurobiological sounds like psychological to me. Unless you're saying doctors are measuring things like dopamine activity or doing brain MRIs to diagnose ADHD. There's no good evidence that ADHD is not the result of psychological conditioning. For that matter, even if you measured abnormal neurotransmitter activity or brain scans in suspected ADHD patients before diagnosing them, if you looked at animal psychology st…

These are easy problems for you to solve on your own, but since you don't feel like it I'll give it a shot. 1) You don't need to speculate what neurobiological means using phonetics, it's a real word with a definition you can just look up if your actual interest is in the facts. Neurobiological actually means related to the nervous system of the body. ALS is also neurobiological, and I'm guessing you wouldn't say it…

You haven't addressed the issue. First of all, you need more than a correlation to call a problem 'neurobiological'. All behavioral patterns will have physiological correlates, but that doesn't mean these are the causes.

Secondly, even if you are convinced that these correlates are causal, if you do not actually test for them, then you have to show that the diagnosis method correlates strongly with the biology. I have bothered to look. I can't find such data. Are you saying you have?

The last part of what you are saying seems to be combination of an appeal to authority and affirming the consequent: "Because the scientific community currently recommends pharmaceutical treatment, the problem must have an organic cause."

Having worked closely with psychiatrists, I can assure you that recommending a pharmaceutical treatment is rarely done because they understand the mechanism of action. It is rarely even done because they think the cause is organic rather than environmental. It is done because it is the only effective option available to them.

Psychiatrists don't have the power to change schools or parenting, but they can prescribe drugs which may improve the outcome, and so have a duty to do so. This doesn't mean that the problem is a lack of medication, or even that the cause is biological. It's that doctors can't change the environment.

Consider PTSD - which can be treated using drugs and therapy, and clearly has neurobiological correlates. The cause is war and violence, not the lack of drugs.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#95
For those who don't know Esquire, it's basically a supermarket tabloid-for-men style magazine. It's not a science mag, so for anyone to get too upset about it is, well, just not really smart. [0]

That said, the horrific FUD writing style is insulting. The comments by HN users - I can't even identify with the people here.

Now imagine that he is suffering like this because of a mistake... If you have a son in America, there is an alarming probability that this has happened or will happen to you.

Absolute bullshit. Total and utter crap. That does not happen. I have two ADHD kids and it was (a) my choice to take them to a doctor, (b) my choice of which doctor they went to, and (c) my choice as to whether there was a diagnosis of ADHD. It's farcical for me to read the opening paragraphs of this "article" and its presumption that doctors are evil and really just want to incorrectly diagnose kids. Atrocious.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire_%28magazine%29

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#96
post #61

ADHD isn't real. It didn't exist in many previous generations. Surely, the behavior of children hasn't changed much over the last few generations so how come this "disease" didn't exist previous to the current couple of generations and how come it still doesn't exist in many places on the planet? Could foreign kids somehow be better? Of course not. As the article points out, this is a ploy by pharmaceutical companies…

My parents didn't want me on ADHD meds - which is hysterical because my father very obviously has undiagnosed symptoms of ADHD too - so I didn't get any and had to rely solely on behavioral techniques and societal pressure until I picked my own damn therapist. Me at 16 in college with dinky checklists compared to me at 25 right now with the same checklists and Adderall is like night and day. As much as I love my pare…

You didn't get any drugs as a child other than the ones you put yourself on? It's a tragedy.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#97
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ADHD is very treatable, but untreated, it can easily lead to other comorbidities that are much more difficult to treat (such as depression) This claim needs citation. The overall point is that the cost of the false positive overweighs the cost of the false negative

Which article did you read? Not only was there no discussion of the cost of false negatives, there was very little treatment of the actual cost of false positives, just a nebulous assertion that its bad for kids to be on pills. I would say the point of the article is here is a list of reasons why it might be over-diagnosed, some people on both sides of that, 50% puffed up with human interest pap about the Boy Whisper…

Medication carries a risk.

One of the most important questions you can ask your doctor is "what happens if we just do watchful waiting?"

Taking meds, with their potential risk, if they provide no benefit is a bad thing.

While ADHD is real and needs treatment some of the people being medicated either have other diagnoses or they have bad parents. This isn't something that should be passed onto the child ("there is something wrong with you, take these meds") when it is the family that is broken ("I need to learn some better parenting techniques; we need to set firmer boundaries").

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#98

For those who don't know Esquire, it's basically a supermarket tabloid-for-men style magazine. It's not a science mag, so for anyone to get too upset about it is, well, just not really smart. [0] That said, the horrific FUD writing style is insulting. The comments by HN users - I can't even identify with the people here. Now imagine that he is suffering like this because of a mistake... If you have a son in America,…

> (c) my choice as to whether there was a diagnosis of ADHD

Wait, what?

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#99
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to read more about the structural brain differences, if you've got links.

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=ADHD&Template=/Cont... http://www.kennedykrieger.org/overview/news/brain-imaging-st... Really a search for "adhd brain development" yields plenty of results. :)

Thanks for the reply.

I did note this:

Brain imaging is not ready for use as a diagnostic tool in ADHD, Shaw said."It is still too early to use neuroanatomical scans for diagnosis," he said. "We had to scan hundreds of children to identify subtle differences. They [the differences] are very real, but they are subtle. So the scan of any one child will not tell you a great deal about whether [he or she has] ADHD or not. Currently, the diagnosis of ADHD remains clinical."

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/articles/brain-maturation-de...

A buddy of mine was telling me that you could diagnose ADHD with brain scans--this link seems to say the exact opposite.

Re: The Drugging Of The American Boy

#100
post #90
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the entire brain, just the portions that deal with self control! This is actually where the "Hyperactive" part of ADHD comes from, normally the parts of the brain that control motor skills and the parts that allow for self control grow in tandem, for children with ADHD, their motor skills outpace their self control. Their executive functioning eventually catches up, thus the myth of "children grow out of ADHD" ca…

Thank you for the pointers. They appear to be about the same research program. They share the same author, Philip Shaw. From the first "We measured the thickness of the cortex across thousands of points in the brain in .. (466) children - half of whom had ADHD and half of whom did not" and from the second "They recruited 234 children with ADHD and 231 typically developing children ... they were able to map the trajec…

One key source of confusion when reading about ADHD is that researchers on the cutting edge of ADHD have pretty much concluded that there are multiple types of "ADHD" and that the label is overused. Unfortunately no one can agree on a proper labels to use instead...

What this means is that you get a lot of studies that have conclusions such as "well this drug worked for 70% of the test subjects but danged if we know why the other 30% were unresponsive, after all, they have been diagnosed with ADHD!"

If you really want to dive deep, I suggest this talk by Russell Barkley, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3d1SwUXMc0, it does an excellent job of covering why the hell the current literature on ADHD is such a mess.

He also provides lots of compelling evidence for ADHD, but also discusses various symptom (and treatment!) clusters that defy explanation if you think of just "ADHD". There is also discussion different causes of ADHD, suffice to say the symptom rate for children born to mothers who drink during pregnancy is, to say the least, way above the norm, with ADHD in those cases being co-morbid with other disorders[0]. Finally there is some slides about genetics as well.

On a related note, it is funny, the term ADHD-PI is being used by some people to basically describe an entirely different disorder with a completely different treatment mechanism. Stimulants do nothing, but there are treatment programs that do help. On ADHD support forums, those of us who are regular contributors try to do our best to educate ourselves about ways to help people who both have "ADHD" and also "ADHD-PI".

As for the entire "ADHD isn't real" crowd, well, those of us who have it get rather pissed off. I have been reduced to tears because I wanted to do something with every fiber of my being but was unable to focus on it for more than seconds at a time.

Even with a well tweaked treatment regimen, ADHD is still a daily struggle. It is a literal fight to maintain control of myself, from pushing back against a constant all consuming addiction to anything that resembles a dopamine reward cycle[1] to having a reserve of will power[2] that resembles a water pump sitting out in the dry desert heat.

One thing people without ADHD don't realize is that for those with ADHD, the drugs work very differently. Someone without ADHD can take ADHD stimulants and stay up for 2 days straight and have razor focus. Someone with ADHD who takes the same meds, well, going back to my previous metaphor, it is like priming the pump, even with drugs it still takes a slew of self control techniques learned through years of therapy to maintain control over my life.

To live my daily life, I carry an organizer around wherever I go that I write everything down in. I then have calendar events for everything I need to do. On top of that I have my life carefully arranged such that everything I need to do is within instant quick reach, because if I have to spend even a modicum of effort to achieve what I want to do, I will get distracted on my way and forget what the hell I am after.

Thankfully little details help establish some sort of normality. My keys, wallet, laptop, badge, glasses, notebook, all sit next to each other stacked in a nice pile that I can put into/on my pockets/back/face within seconds. If I get interrupted, I will forget one of those.

Side effects of this? I pretty much have to live close to work because I'll forget my laptop at home roughly 60% of the time. (I don't carry my laptop home every day so I do not have the same years of routine built up that allow me to remember the other things I need.)

Heck yesterday I went to a friend's house to make waffles and I forgot the bloody waffle mix. (Sorta the one thing required to make waffles.)

Any one set of these symptoms in of itself is not unusual. Some people have a poor memory, meh. Some people are easily distracted, sure. But when a cluster of symptoms all comes together and has a serious negative impact on the quality of someone's life, then there is a real problem that needs investigation and help.

I guess what it comes down to is, I've both struggled with ADHD myself, and seen undiagnosed, untreated, ADHD completely destroy people's lives.

Finally, there are a variety of diagnostic criteria that can be used for testing ADHD. A full suite of psychological evaluation tests will include sections on attention and focus. People with ADHD will basically fail bomb those parts of the test. (Said tests tend to take multiple days and cost thousands of dollars to administer...)

[0]ADHD's co-morbidity with bi-polar disorder is tragically high. Thankfully this is a topic which has recently gotten a lot more awareness in the medical community, so patients are finally being properly diagnosed. Of course there is a huge stigma around bi-polar disorder, much more so than ADHD, so a lot of people who are willing to admit that they have ADHD may very well turn away or refuse to believe a diagnose of bi-polar. This typically doesn't end well...

[1]I avoid MMOs and mobile gaming like the plague. I've gotten almost addicted to MMOs a couple of times, thankfully both times I was able to write a bot to play for me and then lost interest.

[2]http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/10/mf-willpower/

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