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Signs that you're a bad programmer

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Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#91

Post by kevindication »

dionidium wrote: post #55
321abc wrote: post #36

The author lists the following as a symptom of being "unable to reason about code": "5. 'Bulldozer code' that gives the appearance of refactoring by breaking out chunks into subroutines, but that are impossible to reuse in another context (very high cohesion)" I disagree with this. The purpose of breaking out code in to subroutines isn't only for code reuse. If you don't break out code in to subroutines, at some poin…

Sometimes the (seemingly) simple act of trying to come up with a name for a subroutine helps me reason about what it is I'm trying to do (whether the chunk is re-usable or not).

I don't know if you've tried this, but if you write down some pseudocode before you really get started, the logical chunks of the program will take their names straight from the pseudocode.

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#92

Post by timwiseman »

axod wrote: post #82
scottdw2 wrote: post #71

I have to say, I really didn't like the document much. Not because of substance. Some of what he says is true. On style, though, I think the document is trash. Some of what I say is probably even a bit ad hominem. Most of the good programmers I know don't spend time worrying about bad programmers. They just write good code and cleanup bad code when they see it. If someone feels compelled to write up an essay about ba…

>> "They where hired under the same standards as you." The problem is though the hiring process for programmers is often completely broken. Measuring good programmers is also broken in many companies, so bad programmers tend to just stay there instead of improving, or being fired. I think being a good programmer isn't too hard if you have the talent, taste, time etc. Being recognized as a good programmer, and rewarde…

Excellent point. Another to add to the list is that you may easily have been hired under a higher standard as the team lead or "working/programming manager".

I have been fortunate to never work with a bad programmer, but I have worked with inexperienced programmers that were learning as they went. I was not hired under the same standard or for the same reason they were.

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#93

Post by wynand »

axod wrote: post #82
scottdw2 wrote: post #71

I have to say, I really didn't like the document much. Not because of substance. Some of what he says is true. On style, though, I think the document is trash. Some of what I say is probably even a bit ad hominem. Most of the good programmers I know don't spend time worrying about bad programmers. They just write good code and cleanup bad code when they see it. If someone feels compelled to write up an essay about ba…

>> "They where hired under the same standards as you." The problem is though the hiring process for programmers is often completely broken. Measuring good programmers is also broken in many companies, so bad programmers tend to just stay there instead of improving, or being fired. I think being a good programmer isn't too hard if you have the talent, taste, time etc. Being recognized as a good programmer, and rewarde…

I agree with your sentiment, and although I generally agree with the parent, I also disagree with the statement that "[t]hey where hired under the same standards as you". Few companies look for programming talent and I've seen this being hand waved away by statements like: "good programmers don't necessarily make good employees".

But on the whole, the article also leaves a sour taste in my mouth due to the superiority complex that cuts through it.

Good programmers won't effect much change at companies that have broken hiring practices. Rather move somewhere where your skills will be appreciated.

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#94

Post by wizard_2 »

drusenko wrote: post #25
nbroyal wrote: post #18

Google cache for those who hit the "pageview limit exceeded" nonsense: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=clnk&#3...

wow, that's completely ridiculous. searching through their help center, they won't even tell you what the limit is, but it seems to be pretty low. just. wow.

This has been making the rounds on twitter and other places, I'm sure it's had a fair amount of load.

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#95

Post by rdouble »

carterschonwald wrote: post #47
ardit33 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's very sweet for MIT types to make these declarations from mount olympus, but lisp is something that can take time to acquire." Don't worry. In the Valley, people from MIT don't have a good reputation as great programmers. For some reason, their education is a lot of 'theory' and less practice. Apart from Standford\Caltech, Some of the best schools that produce great programmers are your average state school. I h…

nope not the case, I know a bunch of people at these various schools, and the crux of the problem is that theres a huge culture at MIT (and moreso than many peer schools) of celebrating herculean last minute efforts that get the grade. This is great for experimental hacking on a weekend, and "good enough" for research, but it does not encourage an incremental design sensibility, owing to its last minute nature. This…

the crux of the problem is that theres a huge culture at MIT (and moreso than many peer schools) of celebrating herculean last minute efforts that get the grade

That's a very astute observation. I work and have worked with many MIT people, and even TA'd an MIT course. The "all nighter" hazing ritual culture was very prevalent. To this day, my friends who went to MIT prefer to work 24 hour shifts, late nights, and on weekends - even though they've been out of school for a decade. In addition, MIT had a culture of boot-camp style negative reinforcement. "You suck, are not smart enough and are lazy, work harder" was the driving attitude. (at least it was in the late 1990s)

In contrast, when I moved to the west coast, all the Stanford people I met were more about basking in their obvious awesomeness and mastering time management. Get the project done early, schedule everything around ultimate frisbee team and rock climbing club, go to the outdoor concert on Friday night and still make it up to Tahoe for the weekend.

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#96

Post by sophacles »

blasdel wrote: post #13
elai wrote: post #6

He's missing the third part, signs your a decent programmer, to differentiate the good from the great.

That's ridiculously difficult to do at all, much less in pithy universal checklist form.

For starters howabout: 1. you read the bad list and thought "oh crap!" 2. the oh crap is no longer a problem for you, but remembering the code with that problem makes you wince.

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#97

Post by clawrencewenham »

scottdw2 wrote: post #71

I have to say, I really didn't like the document much. Not because of substance. Some of what he says is true. On style, though, I think the document is trash. Some of what I say is probably even a bit ad hominem. Most of the good programmers I know don't spend time worrying about bad programmers. They just write good code and cleanup bad code when they see it. If someone feels compelled to write up an essay about ba…

> If someone feels compelled to write up an essay about bad programmers, he probably spends a lot of time dealing with bad programmers.

I should cancel my appointment with the psychoanalyst :-)

Writing is also a catharsis. You write to discover what you think and improve yourself.

But perhaps Isaac Asimov spent a lot of time dealing with robots...

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#98

Post by Pistos2 »

321abc wrote: post #36

The author lists the following as a symptom of being "unable to reason about code": "5. 'Bulldozer code' that gives the appearance of refactoring by breaking out chunks into subroutines, but that are impossible to reuse in another context (very high cohesion)" I disagree with this. The purpose of breaking out code in to subroutines isn't only for code reuse. If you don't break out code in to subroutines, at some poin…

Am I the only one that thinks the original author's use of the term cohesion is wrong? I thought the goals were: high cohesion and loose coupling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohesion_(computer_science) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(computer_science)

Re: Signs that you're a bad programmer

#99

Post by JMostert »

Funny that he has this under "Signs that you shouldn't be a programmer": "you think the presence of code in a program will affect its runtime behavior, even if it is never invoked".

Anyone who has written code in C can probably cite an anecdote where exactly this was the case, be it from a compiler bug or as fallout from a memory corruption bug.

Maybe we should add "does not understand the von Neumann architecture" to the list of signs that you're a mediocre programmer... On second thought, let's not -- the piece is bad enough to begin with. The "alternative careers" sections are just odious, and the whole thing breathes an air of inconstructiveness.

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