Live data from Hacker News

Thoughts on Bitcoin

blog.samaltman.com

91–100 of 213 posts

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#91
post #83
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your definition of a "mistake", the biggest mistake you probably made in your life was not buying all the Medifast Inc stock you could get your hands on in 1999. It went up 16,210% in ten years. But wait, it gets worse. Even just going back a year, if you had bought and sold the right stocks at the right times, you'd be the richest person on earth by far, even if you only started with a few bucks. But don't worry,…

[deleted]

Emotionally it does matter. Economically there's no difference between having the $2000 cash and buying 100BTC at $20 versus having 100BTC at $20 and choosing not to sell it.

I would strongly recommend rereading skwirl's post and introspecting on the ways that emotions rather than the hard calculus of the market may be at influence.

I say this as someone who is long on BTC (and purchased right before the last great crash, where it dropped 30x in an instant). I've known the entire time that it's a wild gamble, and having a few coins just in case it becomes absurdly successful sounded fun (it's been very successful for that, watching the highs and lows, talking about it with friends and coworkers, even if it crashed again I've already gotten my money's worth).

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#92

I've been watching bitcoin since $30, bought at $80, and sold last night. I think that Stefan Molyneux (or however you spell it) is right on when he says that bitcoin is "a revolutionary protocol for information synchronization." However, it is by no means unique, and as we've seen, anyone can start their own bitcoin-type cryptocurrency. Apparently, the Canadian government is working on their own, and I don't think i…

I just put a sell order in for a percentage of my bitcoins because I think that there will be a pull back, but with that in mind I have the following response: Some of us don't want the help of a government. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin is that it is a (nearly) zero trust method of transacting. The value is in the fact that there is no central bank to be afraid of. Most of the wealth my parents have lost in…

Your post is so true. My parents still have all their money tied in to their mortgage because the government said it's good for them. Maybe I don't value US currency, because I don't value my US government which is completely broken from head to toe.

But, it isn't just an issue for people in the USA. It's a blessing for people who live in more oppressed region of the world. Look at what happened in Iceland and how the bankers stole from the people.

People don't like the idea of their wallet being on someone else's hard drive. And that's exactly how the current system is ran. Your money is in a vault, and you have to go through an even worse time to get it than I do. And I don't pay fees, and so on etc.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#93
post #79

The way I value bitcoin is to take the fully diluted market cap (21 million * $850 ~= $18 billion) and apply a money velocity which I assumed to be similar to US M2 velocity of 1.6 ($18 billion * 1.6 ~= $28.5 billion). Since global ecommerce transactions are about $1 trillion / yr this implies that bitcoin should penetrate 2.85% of ecommerce. Big assumption here is that bitcoin does not work for real-world transactio…

I think much of BTC's valuation come from expectations that money velocity and market penetration will increase.

EDIT: Sorry I meant to say the velocity will decrease.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope those 11k aren't all your savings. I have coins, am bullish long term, but buying bitcoin is speculation, and bitcoin can fall back to $0.01, even if I don't think it's likely.

It is indeed all my savings. But I was saving it anyway, so I won't be out in a doghouse if it vanishes. I guess I'm dumb, but at this stage in my life I'd rather have 9.89BTC than $11k. My theory is, everyone's expecting it to crash. So therefore it's more likely to do the opposite. Not much of a theory, but it seems to have been historically true.

> My theory is, everyone's expecting it to crash.

If the market is efficient, the collective expectations is what gives the price at a given moment. It is what people are will ing to pay for it and what people are willing to sell for.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just put a sell order in for a percentage of my bitcoins because I think that there will be a pull back, but with that in mind I have the following response: Some of us don't want the help of a government. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin is that it is a (nearly) zero trust method of transacting. The value is in the fact that there is no central bank to be afraid of. Most of the wealth my parents have lost in…

I agree with the majority of your post, but I'm not convinced that inflation should be included in your list of bad things ("do you want inflation, meddling, and regulation?"). A moderate amount of inflation is a very good thing, and this isn't really even open to debate among economists. Its importance has been empirically and theoretically proven many times. Inflation is important because economics is all about cre…

Inflation is not essential.

If people hide their money under mattresses, all that means is that they aren't competing to buy the available goods. Inputs for other ventures are cheaper.

If the government weren't trying to re-inflate the asset bubble with cheap money, ventures that make more sense would be flourishing instead.

Resources are not infinite. When someone accepts a piece of paper and just holds on to it instead of immediately consuming what he could buy, the resources are available for other things.

And when there are more people deferring their consumption, its cheaper to borrow money/resources and cheaper to grow new industries.

Countries don't become rich and powerful by consuming everything as soon as they get it. They do it by growing their industries.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#96

The following graph shows the estimated volume of transactions: https://blockchain.info/charts/estimated-transaction-volume?... You see immediately from the graph that the growth in number of transactions is relatively slow, considering all the media attention, and certainly far, far slower than the increase in the exchange rate. Note that this graph is not the same as the number of "legitimate transactions" mentione…

This graph may provide a better picture of the number of transactions (excluding popular addresses like satoshi dice):

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popu...

This one shows a much higher growth. (Although this kind of data doesn't mean much, and i agree bitcoin isn't being used much for actual transactions)

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#97
post #93
post #79

The way I value bitcoin is to take the fully diluted market cap (21 million * $850 ~= $18 billion) and apply a money velocity which I assumed to be similar to US M2 velocity of 1.6 ($18 billion * 1.6 ~= $28.5 billion). Since global ecommerce transactions are about $1 trillion / yr this implies that bitcoin should penetrate 2.85% of ecommerce. Big assumption here is that bitcoin does not work for real-world transactio…

I think much of BTC's valuation come from expectations that money velocity and market penetration will increase. EDIT: Sorry I meant to say the velocity will decrease.

A higher money velocity => lower BTC/USD, but yes, the current price implies a huge future growth of the bitcoin economy. This is what sam is saying and I agree. I happen to think that we will not see that growth/adoption, but that is a different question.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#98
post #36

I normally love SA's writing, but this opinion piece is really narrow minded and I think misses the point. cs702 had a fantastic comment a few days ago in another thread [1]: Bitcoin befuddles experts who analyze it from a narrow perspective, because it is not just a new medium of exchange or a new store of value: it is also a new kind of point-of-sale payment system (one that doesn't require payment processors), a n…

Sorry, I think the legitimate transactions idea is actually one of the stronger parts of this piece.

> As long as there is a large enough community of people who want to use it to transfer value for any reason, it'll continue to sustain itself.

That's precisely the problem.

A community of speculators will only remain stable or increase in number where the price of the asset continues to grow. In the case of Bitcoin, the price can only grow if legitimate transactions increase, or if more people speculate. With every increase in price the number of people willing to speculate decreases, to the point where you run out of greater fools to sell the asset onto, causing a crash.

That means that an increase in legitimate transactions is really the only way to sustainably grow the value of the network, because it is the only method resistant to falls in price.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just put a sell order in for a percentage of my bitcoins because I think that there will be a pull back, but with that in mind I have the following response: Some of us don't want the help of a government. The revolutionary thing about Bitcoin is that it is a (nearly) zero trust method of transacting. The value is in the fact that there is no central bank to be afraid of. Most of the wealth my parents have lost in…

I agree with the majority of your post, but I'm not convinced that inflation should be included in your list of bad things ("do you want inflation, meddling, and regulation?"). A moderate amount of inflation is a very good thing, and this isn't really even open to debate among economists. Its importance has been empirically and theoretically proven many times. Inflation is important because economics is all about cre…

Note that you are the one that calls my list bad, yet I specifically said that the uninformed should prefer this currency. Why should the uninformed prefer an inflationary currency? Because the uninformed are bad at accepting a decrease in demand of their market rate (their work performance would disproportionately decrease if given a 2% decrease in nominal wages).

With that aside, let me give cover my complex thoughts on inflation:

Sometimes it is possible to alter a function in such a way that the output is later maximized. Sometimes this is possible by essentially lying to people. When someone doesn't get a raise each month to make up for the expansion of the monetary supply he is effectively getting a pay cut, but he's been manipulated into not really noticing this. But markets are not fixed. Technology expands, populations expand, priorities shift (from religious worship to drugs or science, for example). At some point it is possible for a portion of the system to understand the manipulation and to maximize it for that portion's gain. Just as Keynes talked about priming a pump, imaging those that sell the primer. It is in their interest for the system to stutter so they make efforts to have it so fairly frequently. The secondary effects of this manipulation are malinvestments by those not party to the information about the cycle.

But even that has a secondary effect: The effect of some informed people taking actions to minimize the harm done to their own fortunes. They sidestep property and stock bubbles, but they still need to beat inflation.

Those informed people start talking about a replacement for the inflationary monetary system. They argue on the internet about crypto-currencies and they refine their ideas, and ultimately Bitcoin gets created. We are living in aftermath of centuries of Keynesian policy, this is PART of the long run to which Keynes is dead in. The part where something by design is (essentially) non-inflationary. Even gold had its risks (Fusion, for example) but while Bitcoin is free as in liberty it is also unforgiving of mistakes. That is why the uninformed shouldn't access it. Or at least not it directly. They should trust banks or become informed, because as it stands now they are not equipped to handle it.

Lastly, I reject the notion that inflation has proved useful for stabilizing the economy.

Fractional banking by its nature monetizes all assets (since most loans are secured, the 10x multiplication window is just a fancy way of "printing" money from the value of your house or factory). But the relative value between the underlying assets and the currency is in flux (or the futures market for the good would be 0, and the information already priced into the market) and in exchange for this freeing of capital and acceleration of gains to wise economic asset allocators, this temporal variance in asset value causes an increase of volatility in the financial system ESPECIALLY when the majority of its deposits are demand deposits since there is also system wide uncertainty in cash-on-hand.

It may be that the increase volatility and subsequent government action maximize technological, ecological, and industrial advancement by allocating assets into the hands of todays best and brightest; or it may be that the cost of management (inflation, regulation, deposit insurance, super insurance, asset backed derivatives, to big to fail bailouts) exceed the gains of a fractional reserve banking + inflationary monetary supply system, but we will not be able to tell by examining the data on inflation in economies where fractional reserve is a GIVEN.

Re: Thoughts on Bitcoin

#100

I've been watching bitcoin since $30, bought at $80, and sold last night. I think that Stefan Molyneux (or however you spell it) is right on when he says that bitcoin is "a revolutionary protocol for information synchronization." However, it is by no means unique, and as we've seen, anyone can start their own bitcoin-type cryptocurrency. Apparently, the Canadian government is working on their own, and I don't think i…

I wanted to buy right when it hit $850 a few days ago. I redeemed my $11k mutual fund, but the wire transfer took until Friday to go trough. By the time I was able to buy bitcoins, they were $1111 on coinbase. Bought anyway. Got 9.89BTC. Just lost $2k of that investment, according to the markets. Though it seems to be recovering somewhat. Ow. Anyway, I'm long on bitcoin. Maybe it will crash and I'll lose everything.…

For the love of god, be sensible - sell half on Monday and put it back into a traditional retirement investment. You'll still do well if BTC goes up. There is no reason to put 100% of your retirement funds into any single asset.
Post reply on HN