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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#91

Post by dragonwriter »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

> And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities?

Why would it do that?

> After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator.

The threat of absolute poverty may have some marginal value as a motivator, but what it motivates is largely risk-averse behavior to maintain the status quo from those at risk of poverty but not currently in it. At the same time, the reality of poverty often means, regardless of motivation, the absence of the means to many things, regardless of motivation.

> With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor?

No, if we are funding a basic income guarantee from progressive income taxation, we won't see a greater divide between the rich and the poor, in any case. We might (though I don't see any reason to believe this is particularly likely) see a greater gap in skills between the "skilled" and the "unskilled" by some measures, but as this gap won't produce as large of a gap as currently between the opportunities and choices available to the next generation offspring of the "skilled" and "unskilled", that will simply reflect a greater realization of human freedom.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#92

Post by jeremyjh »

adekok wrote: post #36
peterdundi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

This seems to me a typical US response. Let me give you a perspective from the rest of the world. I've lived for years in multiple countries on multiple continents, so I'm not just talking out my backside. In the rest of the world, the poor people vote for health care, welfare, and unemployment insurance. This is because they want that safety for themselves if something goes wrong. They recognize that these programs…

You have to understand that much of debate in the US is coded for racism. There are a lot of European bigots who do not want to extend benefits and social services to (legal) immigrants, particularly islamic immigrants. In the US it is the same only the attitudes are also held against large segments of our citizens.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#93

Post by salient »

Retric wrote: post #2

I think a basic income is a decent idea but 583$ a month aka 10k - 3k for heath insurance seems rather low to replace things like disability checks especially if your removing all benefits for children. It's also not goig to satisfy people on social security who are getting checks for as much as 3,000$ a month.

It definitely needs to be combined with a huge overhaul of the healthcare system (no, I don't think ACA is quite enough), and another huge overhaul of the education system (stop giving unlimited guaranteed money from the government to universities for starters).

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#94

Post by brockers »

The author is a little confused about the history of Libertarian thought on this issue. A minimum basic income (MBI) is NOT a social progressive concept first thought up by western social democrats but was originally a fundamental tenant of a flat tax system. Something Libertarian's have been arguing in favor of for a long time.

The basic design is simple. You give every person a single dollar amount as a MBI and then ALL income (besides the MBI) is taxed at a flat rate of X percent. For example (and just using simple numbers for maths sake) pretend that the MBI is $10,000 and the tax rate is 10%. Everyone making LESS than $100,000 would actually receive a subsidy because their overall paid tax would be less than the $10,000 they received from the MBI. Everyone over $100,000 would pay a progressively higher tax approaching 20%. The results are:

1) A tax rate that is perfectly progressive providing a MBI and fully scaled real tax rate for everyone. 2) Increased income has no tax disincentives (your tax rate doesn't change because you move into a higher income.) 3) Simplifies that tax code dramatically (which would also increase revenue.) 4) Doesn't artificially encourage capital gains manipulation by large income holders. 5) Removes government manipulation of social policy by giving them ONLY two number to play with... MBI and tax rate! 6) Finally, it provides a real mechanism for everybody to feel the effects of tax rate changes. Making it MORE responsive to economic factors like income inequality. For example, if 90% of people would get more money in their pocket by increasing the MBI to $15,000 while also increasing the tax rate to 30%... the likelihood of that change actually passing through Congress is dramatically higher that it currently is because such a system is transparent to your own pocketbook.

ALL of these effects without negatively affecting market freedom. Again, we see Libertarian thought is both MORE "fair" AND more compassionate.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#96

Post by dragonwriter »

prostoalex wrote: post #64
tghw wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one real world example we have, of Dauphin, suggests this is not the case at all. A final report was never issued, but Dr. Evelyn Forget conducted an analysis of the program in 2009 which was published in 2011. She found that only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less becaus…

If every child is eligible for his fair share of minimum income, there's a good incentive to direct productive-work energy into baby-making activities, boosting household's basic income numbers with each new addition.

> If every child is eligible for his fair share of minimum income, there's a good incentive to direct productive-work energy into baby-making activities, boosting household's basic income numbers with each new addition.

That kind of assumes basic income adds to rather than replaces existing welfare programs, which already have this feature. If it replaces them -- as most basic income advocates propose -- there is no reason to expect much change in this dimension, except that people already on the programs would, under basic income, have low-wage jobs as an option -- in place of baby-making -- to get more money, where in the status quo with means-tested programs, a low-wage job is often a net loss even in the immediate term, because it reduces benefits (sometimes 1:1, sometimes even greater by passing a sharp cutoff for important benefits.)

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#97

Post by dragonwriter »

cobrausn wrote: post #35
lelandbatey wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

My ability to invent and create is limited by my education. If I never got one in the first place because I had my basic needs met, there are quite a few things I could never do that I could now. And 'worth a try' on something this potentially disruptive needs more evidence than wants and feels for me to ever consider it viable. I don't think I'm alone.

> My ability to invent and create is limited by my education. If I never got one in the first place because I had my basic needs met

This is wierdly backwards. The people least like to get an education are the people whose basic needs are not met.

Its not like people who grow up rich have on average lower levels of educational attainment than those who grow up poor.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#98

Post by maaku »

carbocation wrote: post #57
octo_t wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

obvious answer: universal healthcare.

That implies that they're not talking about scrapping the welfare state. That's fine, but it implies that they are not speaking plainly, and it also eliminates the basis for my question.

Most people in the world don't count universal healthcare as part of the welfare state.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#99

Post by ctdonath »

pinaceae wrote: post #60

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep.

Once you've established a "protection money" system, establishing their "right" to your money & property, they are now incentivized to demand - and take - more. Panem et circenses is the last stage of polite society; the cost eventually becomes unbearable as fewer work and more expect comfort & leisure for nothing.

You give poor people money because it's generosity, kindness and help - freely given as your choice. The recipient receives knowing the charity is out of goodness, and is coupled to an expectation that the recipient will make a respectable effort to overcome poverty.

As an American, we ensure people don't climb over the fence and kill us in our sleep because (A) the firepower many have within 3 steps of bed will give potential attackers pause, and (B) the local police will apprehend surviving thugs. We also strive to reduce legal barriers to productivity, promoting liberty to earn an honest wage for honest work (rather than creating high cost of entry with a flurry of stifling regulations). Between severe disincentives to crime, coupled with easy access to rewarding opportunity, we don't have to pay people to not kill us.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#100

Post by venomsnake »

Kiro wrote: post #46

Can someone tell me why basic income won't just lead to inflation? Everyone gets more money which drives up the prices until the gain is negligible.

And what is the problem with inflation? If something it is a great problem that we are having so little of it globally. Inflation in the 2-4% per year is healthy.
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