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Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

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Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#91

Post by harryh »

proksoup wrote: post #60
rayiner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that. Politicians have a limited amount of political capital, and in American politics even getting little things done requires spending a lot of it. Obama put up some huge numbers and ultimately spent all his political capital just doing two things: 1) getting us out of Iraq; and 2) passing the Affordable Care Act. Ending the drug war is important to some people, but there are tons of peop…

Support the drug war ... for moral reasons? That mother showing pictures of her 4 missing boys in the article this thread is about, I think she would argue the war is immoral. I think the people who think the drug war is moral, would change their mind if they spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it. Baffles my mind, and when pressed in person, even pious blowhards admit there are serious violent death problems w…

If your daughter was routinely going over to a friend's house where the friend's parent was visibly high on a regular basis how would you feel about it?

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#92

Post by MichaelGG »

proksoup wrote: post #60
rayiner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that. Politicians have a limited amount of political capital, and in American politics even getting little things done requires spending a lot of it. Obama put up some huge numbers and ultimately spent all his political capital just doing two things: 1) getting us out of Iraq; and 2) passing the Affordable Care Act. Ending the drug war is important to some people, but there are tons of peop…

Support the drug war ... for moral reasons? That mother showing pictures of her 4 missing boys in the article this thread is about, I think she would argue the war is immoral. I think the people who think the drug war is moral, would change their mind if they spent more than 30 seconds thinking about it. Baffles my mind, and when pressed in person, even pious blowhards admit there are serious violent death problems w…

Some peoples' morals deny life saving medical treatment. Other morals insist that consuming alcohol desecrates a holy temple. Or that porn is evil, or prostitution a "sin". Why would you expect the morals to be based on reason and facts?

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#93

Post by bmelton »

netcan wrote: post #32
dman wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you risk your career and your livelihood for your innate principles often?

I don't think that's fair .. at least not in most cases. Politician is not just a job. It's a leadership role, moral leadership among other things. Being principled is a major component of the job they've undertaken. If a doctor found a discrepancy between his career and the welfare of his patients or a judge between his career and justice, I really do think they are morally obligated to choose selflessly. Maybe it's…

The problem therein is that, at least in the vast majority of circumstances, everybody thinks that they are being "just", but their justice is always colored by their own personal morals, which may or may not conform to your morals or mine.

I'm sure that the judge who recently disallowed a mother from naming her child "Messiah" felt like he was being just, but that justice was undoubtedly colored by his religious faith.

The judges who uphold "traditional marriage" also probably felt like they were being just, as their justice is shaped by what they personally consider to be 'right' and 'wrong'. The law itself, in too many cases, offers too much ambiguity.

We want states to have the right to do things their own way on issues we want, but not on issues we don't. If we, as people, support the right of gay marriage, we think that states should be required to allow it. However, if we support marijuana is relatively harmless, we think that states should be allowed to legalize it.

These are just examples, but it's hard to come up with a 'pragmatic' solution for what is or isn't just. If justice is based on morality, then whose morality do we base it on? If it's based on whether or not it causes harm to others, then what level of harm do we allow? Freedom of speech is generally harmless, except when it isn't -- except when it's "fire" in a theater, or when it's your neighbors yelling at 3 am, or when it's someone preaching [religion/anti-religion] in contrast to what I want to hear.

In short, it's a very complicated thing, justice, with blurry edges, multiple middles, and an infinite list of value substitutions that muddy the issue. Even those doing the very best things for the most noble of purposes can be considered harmful by others who are also doing the very best things for the most noble of purposes.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#94

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

This legalization talk is flawed.

Alcohol is legal, and that doesn't stop people, specially teenagers, from abusing it. It's also proven tobacco addiction starts during adolescence. In this case, legalization is just removing responsibility from the people who profit from it, since in practice the law isn't protecting who it's supposed to protect. Just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical.

Then, we know legalizing certain drugs will only move traffic to worse drugs. Legalize marijuana and dealers will move more crack, just like the mafia moved from alcohol to cocaine after they lifted the prohibition in the US. Now what, the government will legalize crack too? Make even more unethical businesses operate under the law, knowing these products will be abused by teenagers just like alcohol and tobacco today?

There's no easy solution, and no one is addressing the real issue: that substance abuse is cultural and heavily promoted. You talk to young people, and their concept of having a good time is "getting wasted". Dysfunctional families and poverty only worsen the issue.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#95

Post by walshemj »

rthomas6 wrote: post #68
vkou wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that both drug prohibition and the War on Drugs both started as highly racist policies, it seems to be working as intended.

I'd like to read more about this. Do you have a source for this?

More sectarian than a pure race thing it was Nativist Protestant's vs recently immigrant Catholics.

the KKK started out as an Anti catholic group

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#97

Post by girvo »

ambler0 wrote: post #89
girvo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an ex heroin addict. Have been on Suboxone for a year and a half (nearly off it, only two months to go yay!) after being addicted from 16-22 years old. Would I still be where I am if heroin was legal and I was on that for ORT instead of Suboxone? I think I would -- as it stands, I'm still on an extremely strong opiate daily, but it is pure and legal, so a lot of the issues fall away from it. The problem is: that'…

Totally agree that the current approach is not working, and that's why I say that, regardless of which drugs we choose to fully legalize, all of them should be decriminalized. Most people who become addicts are already traumatized in some way and throwing them into the machinery of the criminal justice system only compounds the problem. The healthcare situation also makes it worse. My brother had considerable difficu…

Agreed wholeheartedly.

I'm lucky, it took literally one week for me to get on the program, and costs me $5 a day here in Australia. I have nothing but sympathy for those who aren't as lucky.

Thanks for the support :)

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#99

Post by 7952 »

jlgreco wrote: post #61
7952 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A concern is that the practicalities of such a legalization would just make things worse. It could make it much easier for children to get hold of. You would also need to define what is "pure" and police that for an endless list of possible products. It is difficult enough to keep salmonella out of food, effective regulation of cannabis sounds impossible. Any regulation would need to be sufficiently loose that you do…

When I was a teenager, it was easier for me to buy pot than beer because pot was illegal in general while beer was legally available for most of the population. From what I have heard, this situation was not atypical.

I think this would vary hugely by location (Europe will be different). In some places underage drinking is accepted by adults where drug use is not.

Re: Kofi Annan: Stop 'war on drugs'

#100

Post by mseebach »

legutierr wrote: post #46
rayiner wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've vastly misjudged the battlefield. Among actual voters, the drug war is still seen favorably.

I'd love to know where I could find the stats on actual support that drug war policies have. Although I'm sure that majorities exist opposing outright legalization, I think that the people who support "drug war" policies as they are currently implemented are in the minority. The way the question is posed to people can have a big effect on support. For instance, saying, "The war on drugs is counter-productive because…

You could probably build a coalition in favour of replacing any number of individual policies of "the war on drugs" with "better" policies. It's much, much harder to build one to broadly legalise drugs.

The two problems are that drugs are much too ingrained in society as something incredibly dangerous and that sound-byte politics don't lend itself well to the distinction of wanting an activity to be not prohibited without actually endorsing the activity itself.

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