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Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

roymurdock.com

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Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turns out smart people do dumb things all the time. The trick isn't being smart all the time, which is difficult. Rather, you want to be smart at the right time and convince other incredibly smart people to do something incredibly dumb in that fleeting moment. Last I checked, most of us have never created a messaging app that grew to 350M messages in two years. More importantly, most of us didn't also then convinc…

Yes, yes they do. But like you said, that's fine. Props to the SnapChat guys for cashing out, raising a ton of venture from sheep VCs and getting millions of users? YES, absolutely. Props to the SnapChat guys for creating something of value, substance, technology, IP, etc. None, zero. Just another BS app riding the wave of the top-10 in the appstore. It's not a WIN for society when you create garbage that has some so…

"Props to the SnapChat guys for cashing out, raising a ton of venture from sheep VCs..."

Is this what our industry has come to? Congratulations for raking gullible investors? Like, that's not only socially acceptable, but a worthy outcome that should be applauded?

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#92
post #19

I'll suggest a simpler framework for valuing Snapchat: probability of becoming another Facebook. If you think it has a 5% chance, then it should be valued at around 5 billion (relative to Facebook's 100 billion).

I think there is literally 0 chance for another Facebook. Google tried with Google+ - billions of dollars, millions of man hours by brilliant engineers, crazy bundling strategies by Google. Is Google+ another Facebook yet? Nope, not yet, maybe not ever. Your strategy has merit, but simply making another Facebook is not going to work now (It would have back in Myspace days). Now there is not an untapped market of peop…

I think there is literally 0 chance for another Facebook. Google tried with Google+

I disagree and agree. I agree there will not be another Facebook. I disagree, because Facebook is not the end of the line for social networks, just like Altavista and Inktomi were not the end of the line for search engines.

No one in the social network space has yet hit the quality Google hit with search. I fully agree that once that place is hit, it will be very, very difficult to dislodge whoever does it.

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#93

As you correctly analyzed, snapchats value is majority in user-base. I believe it is specifically the attention of users that gives it value. We measure that with metrics like reach, views, clicks, messages sent etc. The attention comes from the novelty of it, as you adequately put, it has a low barrier to entry due to it's 'low pressure'. It must maintain that attention through low pressure to maintain value. FB wen…

Value for the user and the audience, not so much for the medium of expression. Excuse the lame metaphor, but the canvas Van Gogh painted Starry Night on can't exactly sell itself ;)

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#94

What Snapchat has is millions of users who have formed the habit of opening the app every day and using it to communicate, sending 350 million* snaps a day. You can go ahead and make clones of Snapchat (or Facebook or Twitter), but building a clone does not guarantee that you will get the number users that Snapchat (or Facebook or Twitter) have. The investors are betting that the folks at Snapchat will experiment to…

That's a steal. Buying at 4bn and earning 35m a year, it'll be paid off in a short 114 years. After then, it'll be smooth sailing.

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#96
I loved this piece, but perhaps not for the reason Roy wrote it.

One of the common themes in investing is "what am I missing?" and this piece is a great walk through through a reasoned set of parameters that might make a company or project more or less valuable. The assertion that SnapChat is 'Intrinsicially' worthless is of course false. For something to actually be "worthless" in a free market would require that either no one would offer any value in exchange for partial ownership, or there would have to be outright fraud. We say a 'fake' Van Gough is worthless because it is worth much less than an original, but someone might buy it because they like the painting and they can't afford an original. As a painting it would probably be worth more than a print. But not actually "worthless."

So what is he saying? He says that Snapchat's recent valuation was much higher than he would have put it. And we can ascertain that like the forgery vs. actual painting the difference in the two numbers is large.

So what is the basis for this disconnect? It is this:

" $4bn for an easily replaceable service that is little more than Microsoft Paint duct taped to a disposable camera? A service that voluntarily throws away its own data in the golden age of data hoarding? A service devoid of the nature of competition that is the driving behind every other profitable company in the world?"

The focus here is on the tech and not the market. A pet rock was 'worthless' (the rock was just a rock) but the connection with a generation was valuable. So often in our business we look at something that we feel like we could build (or could be easily built) and a valuation, and focus on those two things. The parts we don't see we give little value to (350M snaps? Seriously? That is a boat load of engagement). Making anything that get 350M 13-23 yr olds engaged is a pretty huge deal. That is what is valuable with Snapchat, not the tech.

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#97

I thought I was taking crazy pills when Zynga got valued more than Electronic Arts. Yeah, a company with games that practically aren't even games which makes money via spammy offers, is worth more than a multi-decade-old company with a gigantic catalog of games, which people actually pay cash for, spread out over every continent and every console, handheld, and PC. When I saw that story, I was like "do any of the jou…

IMO, they'd still be super successful if they had gone mobile fast enough.

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#98
Your Cart:

* 350m snaps per day + potential growth - At least 3 interaction screens per snap (pre-view/view/post-view): that's over 1bn places you could put, say, ads per day. Do the CPI/conversion math on that. * User data for 200m+ users + the ability to extend and refine * A direct line to 200m+ home screens via push notifications * Enough inertia to mitigate the threat of competition (Facebook challenged with the Poke app, that failed) * The potential to change/extend the feature set to more revenue oriented streams * All other possible things you could do with an enormous and massively engaged captive audience...e.g. walking past Starbucks - they're having a slow day. Receive Snapchat from Starbucks with scannable special offer code and super quick expiry. We've just made Groupon for the high street. * Rights to all the above until the end of time

Total: $4bn

Doesn't seem so crazy to me.

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#99

I thought I was taking crazy pills when Zynga got valued more than Electronic Arts. Yeah, a company with games that practically aren't even games which makes money via spammy offers, is worth more than a multi-decade-old company with a gigantic catalog of games, which people actually pay cash for, spread out over every continent and every console, handheld, and PC. When I saw that story, I was like "do any of the jou…

It turns out smart people do dumb things all the time. The trick isn't being smart all the time, which is difficult. Rather, you want to be smart at the right time and convince other incredibly smart people to do something incredibly dumb in that fleeting moment. Last I checked, most of us have never created a messaging app that grew to 350M messages in two years. More importantly, most of us didn't also then convinc…

I think many of us prefer to work on problems that are more interesting, even if one can't get rich doing it. You could also make money running porn sites or casinos, but it's just not very interesting to code to base desires.

Let's also not forget that most of these people who can rich via this route know for a fact that they are selling a shit sandwich to the company that is acquiring them. Do SnapChat founders really think this business is going to make billions in revenue and survive for years? This is the equivalent of 'flipping' in real estate. Take the money and run. You can admire it, but don't ignore the damage and waste it leaves behind to the main stream investors whose equity was handed out in an acquisition for these kinds of companies.

I'm much more interested in companies which create lasting value or solve real world problems.

Re: Snapchat is Intrinsically Worthless

#100

I loved this piece, but perhaps not for the reason Roy wrote it. One of the common themes in investing is "what am I missing?" and this piece is a great walk through through a reasoned set of parameters that might make a company or project more or less valuable. The assertion that SnapChat is 'Intrinsicially' worthless is of course false. For something to actually be "worthless" in a free market would require that ei…

Agreed. This is why Snapchat is attractive, and the model of "get users and content now, monetize later" has worked in the past. So this is simply a scaled-up challenge. I'm curious to see how Snapchat makes its money.

Here's some of my ideas and they all involve in-app purchases:

* Corporate deals that allow you to place products in your snaps, kinda like Photoshop. Example: you pay $0.99 to be able to place a character from South Park in your Snap.

* High-quality snaps, that take advantage of your camera's full resolution

* Sound snaps, so you can record 30 seconds of audio and send it to a friend. Great for sharing tracks you make or music you're hearing, or just to record some idiot yelling on the bus.

There are many more possibilities. Snapchat can almost be thought of as a "social game", a sort-of cross between FarmVille, Instagram and Twitter. You can still share basic things to your friends, but you can pay to send even better things. My ideas may or may not be shitty, but they still prove that the service probably can monetize, in my opinion.

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