I still don't think this comports with the net neutrality rules, which focus on network management at a user/protocol level. Commercial/non-commercial is a business distinction -- which is exactly what net neutrality was meant to stop (e.g. Comcast throttling BitTorrent). Google Fiber shouldn't care a whit if my server is commercial or non-commercial (what does that even mean?) If my usage hurts the network, then GF…
Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
91–100 of 155 posts
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since you are defending this kind of practices, I must ask you: Can you name a single other service or product in the world that include such restrictions , and "up to X" quantity? If I only got 50% of the actually contracted time of an rented apartment (say they wrote "up to 1 month"), I would sue. If the fine print said apartment had restrictions such as only 10 enter/exits, no commercial activities inside it like…
To be clear, I'm not defending most of it. I'm only defending 'ISP's can charge less to home users in exchange for them agreeing not to do specific things'. I'm not defending the anti-competitive nature of laws in the USA. I'm not defending overzealous use of 'home/business' seperation. And I'm not defending overselling backhaul - - - In your example, you use an rented apartment. This is a perfect example, a rented a…
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#93Out of curiosity, why is there a prohibition on a particular type of activity and not just on bandwidth or similar? I understand that this is a fairly common provision, and not specific to Google Fiber at all.
Because not all internet is equal. Most ISP's give home users a significant discount on their service, in exchange for agreeing to certain assumptions about their use. This is done because most home users could never afford internet, if they had to pay for full price. For example, in this area, a dedicated 20x20mb connection to the internet costs about $500USD per month (Metro Ethernet). You can do almost anything yo…
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#94I still don't think this comports with the net neutrality rules, which focus on network management at a user/protocol level. Commercial/non-commercial is a business distinction -- which is exactly what net neutrality was meant to stop (e.g. Comcast throttling BitTorrent). Google Fiber shouldn't care a whit if my server is commercial or non-commercial (what does that even mean?) If my usage hurts the network, then GF…
I run a very non-busy website on my home server. Its got ads so I guess its a business. Seems petty to ban such things. (Not on Google Fiber)
Clearly defining the point at which the line is crossed hamstrings them when unforseen situations arise. Not clearly defining it allows for capricious enforcement. At either end of the spectrum one party loses out. This middle ground allows for both parties to be happy much of the time, but that's not to say no improvements can be made.
I would hope serious proposals for change would take both parties into account and try to find a better compromise.
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#95Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's just imagine for a moment what "truthful advertising" would look like. Probably something like "1 Mbps for $50/month"; when ISPs are already offering 15 Mbps for $50 today there's no way to get there from here.
How about this: for $50/mo you get a guarantee of at least 1Mbps of continuous throughput (or at least a best effort at that), with no restriction on your usage beyond that? Why does it need to be black or white? Why not just dynamically adjust the throughput for "heavy users" so that nobody sees speeds below some level regardless of how others are utilizing the network? Oh, wait, these connections are so grossly ove…
Our typical "small office" connection is advertised as "60x60 bursting on top of a dedicated T1 connection". Which comes out to most people getting around 50x50 about 85% of the time, but always having a dedicated 1.5mbps waiting for you (so it can never drop below that speed, even if every subscriber maxed out their line at the same time).
We also do 'dynamically adjust the throughput for heavy users'. The problem is the heavy users are typically us, the folks on Hacker News who complain when their torrent seeds get slowed down. These are the users who complain about internet being 'oversold' when in reality, they alone account for 80% of their entire neighborhoods backhaul costs.
- - -
I encourage you, if you feel ISP's connections are so oversold, please try to start your own ISP. I'd love to offer everyone awesome dedicated connections, and I'll be your best friend if you can show me a way to do things cheaper :)
But I suspect you'll find out that it's not exactly the easiest business in the world to run, especially if your bootstrapping it.
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be clear, I'm not defending most of it. I'm only defending 'ISP's can charge less to home users in exchange for them agreeing not to do specific things'. I'm not defending the anti-competitive nature of laws in the USA. I'm not defending overzealous use of 'home/business' seperation. And I'm not defending overselling backhaul - - - In your example, you use an rented apartment. This is a perfect example, a rented a…
600GB is a pretty good number, but I'm amused by that example. "It's almost enough to leave a single TV tuned to a standard-definition channel and do nothing else."
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#98Out of curiosity, why is there a prohibition on a particular type of activity and not just on bandwidth or similar? I understand that this is a fairly common provision, and not specific to Google Fiber at all.
Because not all internet is equal. Most ISP's give home users a significant discount on their service, in exchange for agreeing to certain assumptions about their use. This is done because most home users could never afford internet, if they had to pay for full price. For example, in this area, a dedicated 20x20mb connection to the internet costs about $500USD per month (Metro Ethernet). You can do almost anything yo…
> This is done because most home users could never afford internet, if they had to pay for full price.
There is an epistemological problem here about what "full price" means, which is subjective. I would argue that "full price" is simply "whatever AT&T/Comcast charges you". You seem to want there to be some "other" type of price that is the "real price".
Perhaps you are saying that ISPs make more money from business customers than from residential customers. Perhaps this is true, but the fact that it is convenient for the business model of an ISP to charge some customers more does not mean that other customers are not paying "full price".
Perhaps you are saying that residential customers are being provided connections that are below cost. But in an efficient market, an ISP could of course decide not to serve residential customers. Seeing as how ISPs continue to serve residential customers, it must be because residential customers are in fact paying enough money to cover the costs of the services they receive (e.g. "full price").
> The reason it's cheaper is because you agree to use it very lightly
You seem to be suggesting that the primary factor in network costs is use, but all the sources I read (for example this one)[1] suggest that connecting the last mile is expensive, and routing an arbitrary volume of packets over that pre-installed copper is extremely cheap.
If this is true, then it is the residential market that is subsidizing the high-margin business connections, because the sprawling (profitable, predictable) residential networks are the ones that are shortening the last-mile distance to (sparser) business links.
> What some people try to do, is 'cheat' that system.
There is an epistemological assumption in here that "the system" is fair or impartial or acknowledged in general by society or based on objective costs, or something.
> Home users never pay for most of the speeds they get.
I've covered this earlier, but just as an additional argument, I did a cost comparison, and consumer vs business class in my area for my ISP is merely double. Those packages all include website hosting, Exchange, Sharepoint, static IPs, 24x7 support, etc. Just as a point of comparison, market rates for 2GB of Sharepoint hosting are $25/month, hosted Exchange is $20/month, 24x7 support is who knows, etc... So fair to say, very little of the additional revenue could possibly be going to network costs.
[1] http://www.muninetworks.org/content/solving-middle-mile-avai...
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#99Slightly off topic, but browsing the comments on this thread I'm just amazed how good and cheap Internet has become here (Romania) compared to some of the prices out there. A major local provider recently announced a new 1Gbps plan for about 18$/month. I'm currently on their 50Mbps plan, and I get just that: 5MBytes/s up/down.
I'm reading this while I wait for a 10MB upload to crawl to completion on my 768Kbps up connection that costs $40/month. Which is especially sad because I live less than two miles from the dead center of Denver. So yeah, I'm just a bit jealous.
Re: Google Fiber now allows servers for non-commercial use
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
600GB is a pretty good number, but I'm amused by that example. "It's almost enough to leave a single TV tuned to a standard-definition channel and do nothing else."
Would it be better to describe it as "150 different Station Wagons filled with tapes"? :)