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Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

ryanbennett.com

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Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#91

Post by spongle »

narshe wrote: post #89
spongle wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None whatsoever. We killed R# and VisualSVN. Do without the former and use TSVN for the latter. We have 34 projects loaded in the solution so it hits VS's limited 32-bit process restrictions pretty quickly causing the debugger to break miserably. When this fails it's a restart job.

What do you need 34 assemblies for? Seriously?

Our product is very non-trivial! That's just one deployable endpoint. We have 131 projects in total.

some of our application silos are more complicated than other companies entire businesses are. One subsystem has 450,000 LOC in just c# alone and the domain model has 122 classes.

Stuff gets complicated in some sectors...

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#92

Post by rnbennett »

railsfan wrote: post #85
spongle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry signed up to say this - been lurking a while but this one infuriated me terribly. The only reason ASP.Net MVC looks good is because you were a WebForms user before. If you've come from other tech, it's still a stinking pile of crap. 1. The API is totally broken and consists of tonnes of barely testable wrappers (HttpResponseWrapper etc). 2. The attribute model is a pain in the arse. How do you test filters base…

Sorry, signed up to say that you sound like an angry young developer. It sounds like you're angry that you're being "forced" to use a tool you have no idea how to use. I use many different development frameworks and have even used Visual Studio. It's not my main development environment but even I know enough not to load 34 projects into a single solution. Ever hear of compiling some of them and referencing the binari…

You assume too much - disappointing. I was in the .NET world for 12-13 years and worked for MS at one point. I was hardly being 'forced' to use it - instead I was regularly brought in to come in and fix / re-architect others' awful messes.

We both know it's not right to load 34 projects into a solution. It's not something I'd ever do, but it's done by many. I saw it commonly in my clients. My last .NET project I took on about 18 months ago, my client had a Classic ASP/2.0/3.5 chimaera with 50+ solutions, each with up to 40 projects in each. DataSets calling SQL Server stored procs for a data layer. The build process took almost an hour.

It's common unfortunately. Big enterprise, old platform, cluster of code. I stopped using .NET because those enterprises have no desire to fix it.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#93

Post by [deleted] »

narshe wrote: post #89
spongle wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None whatsoever. We killed R# and VisualSVN. Do without the former and use TSVN for the latter. We have 34 projects loaded in the solution so it hits VS's limited 32-bit process restrictions pretty quickly causing the debugger to break miserably. When this fails it's a restart job.

What do you need 34 assemblies for? Seriously?

[deleted]

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#94

Post by spongle »

rnbennett wrote: post #92
railsfan wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, signed up to say that you sound like an angry young developer. It sounds like you're angry that you're being "forced" to use a tool you have no idea how to use. I use many different development frameworks and have even used Visual Studio. It's not my main development environment but even I know enough not to load 34 projects into a single solution. Ever hear of compiling some of them and referencing the binari…

You assume too much - disappointing. I was in the .NET world for 12-13 years and worked for MS at one point. I was hardly being 'forced' to use it - instead I was regularly brought in to come in and fix / re-architect others' awful messes. We both know it's not right to load 34 projects into a solution. It's not something I'd ever do, but it's done by many. I saw it commonly in my clients. My last .NET project I took…

Which is what I'm stuck with (I'm not junior staff either btw - been doing this lark for 26 years). We don't load all the projects at once.

This is actually the debugger failing to load all the symbols into the vshost process because of the memory ceiling being 3.5Gb for 32-bit processes rather than the IDE failing itself. Unfortunately due to poor isolation in VS, it takes out IIS Express and VS IDE.

Release binaries don't blow it but debug ones with pdbs do. This is a shit when your project is large with long dependency chains.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#95

Post by teh_klev »

giulianob wrote: post #55

ASP.NET MVC is fairly solid but the problem is not so much the framework but having to run on Windows. Managing windows server is a horrible experience compared to Linux. The automation tooling for Linux is just far better.

Managing windows server isn't that horrible if you have a decent grasp of PowerShell. Most people can't be bothered learning how to manage Windows (or Unix) servers properly, much in the same way they don't spend time learning Javascript properly.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#96

Post by narshe »

spongle wrote: post #91
narshe wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you need 34 assemblies for? Seriously?

Our product is very non-trivial! That's just one deployable endpoint. We have 131 projects in total. some of our application silos are more complicated than other companies entire businesses are. One subsystem has 450,000 LOC in just c# alone and the domain model has 122 classes. Stuff gets complicated in some sectors...

I understand the complexity issue, and how large corps deal with that stuff... There are other ways you can chunk that stuff up though. Maybe you don't have a choice.

I don't think you can fault Visual Studio for not handling that many projects well.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#97

Post by rjbwork »

jrs235 wrote: post #74
untog wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the first tasks the new CEO will have when Ballmer leaves is the job of convincing Enterprise customers that Microsoft is still here to fill their needs I don't think that Enterprise customers are the problem- they already use MS all the time. It's the small to medium size companies that aren't using it - and as they become larger companies it will become a problem for MS.

Which is why they have BizSpark. They need to do a better job pushing/selling it. And yes, I understand many here on HN get that it's an attempt to lock in the business at a high long term cost for a short term (and I assume many HNers would say marginally small) gain. EDIT: Was finally able to get the page to load... I see the author alluded to this: "Yes, BizSpark is a great program for giving free Microsoft stuff…

If you can even get them to give you the free hit. They seem to have 4 simple requirements met, but I've been turned down for the program even though I'm just a guy developing a single web app product on .NET who started a month ago and have no income yet. I've reapplied but I'm not sure it's worth it. I may end up porting it to Rails or attempting to get it to run on Mono.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#98

Post by spongle »

narshe wrote: post #96
spongle wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our product is very non-trivial! That's just one deployable endpoint. We have 131 projects in total. some of our application silos are more complicated than other companies entire businesses are. One subsystem has 450,000 LOC in just c# alone and the domain model has 122 classes. Stuff gets complicated in some sectors...

I understand the complexity issue, and how large corps deal with that stuff... There are other ways you can chunk that stuff up though. Maybe you don't have a choice. I don't think you can fault Visual Studio for not handling that many projects well.

Agree but we don't have much of a choice. The cost and risk associated with cleaning it up is actually more expensive than leaving it.

Visual Studio would do fine if it was a 64-bit binary. The memory ceiling of 32-bit processes is the problem. People have been calling for 64-bit Visual Studio for a long time.

That is their fault.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#99

Post by Sami_Lehtinen »

redact207 wrote: post #25

Tried reading this but the site was down... ironically. I've been developing the .NET stack for 10 years now and would have to say straight ASP.NET is the easiest way to add the most horrible amount of bloat to your pages and bring about horrible performance. My gut feel is that it was made to allow application developers to build intranet sites without having to worry about the stateless nature of HTTP. The result w…

For some strange reason that strongly reminds me from Apache Tomcat & Hibernate.

Re: Why I Moved Away From Microsoft ASP.NET

#100

Post by narshe »

Touche wrote: post #81
corresation wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MVC4 with AngularJS Why combine a server-side MVC with a client-side MVC? Honestly the ASP.NET MVC advocacy doesn't make sense to me. It is a solution that half brings .NET developers into the modern era. Using it purely as a service layer is that project essentially trying to maintain relevance in the face of irrelevance.

Yep, half-way sounds about right. By default ASP.NET doesn't allow you to GET json, have to override that. Also the routing is not RESTful at all and doesn't handle nesting very well, so you have to find a 3rd party routing library or role your own.

The reason it doesn't allow you to do JSON GET requests is because of the possibility of hijacking. http://haacked.com/archive/2009/06/24/json-hijacking.aspx Not allowing this by default is a good thing. It will make developers look up the reason it's not working, and hopefully not return an array from the get request. They could have done a runtime exception only if an array was returned, but that's a matter of opinion.
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