Take for example serotonin reuptake inhibitors. It's not important to know if a deficiency in serotonin is the "cause" of depression. All we need to know is if increasing the levels of serotonin correlates with an improvement of the condition of the patient better than placebo.
The psychiatric drug crisis
91–100 of 153 posts
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a young engineer-type with no exposure to the psych field, I had about the same opinion when I was in my early 20's. However, a few decades of real life later I've seen first-hand, successes and turnarounds for people who either found themselves in bad situations or were just plain genetically vulnerable. In fact, I'll go as far as saying that counseling or therapy are nothing compared to the difference that the r…
Homeopaths and faith healers say exactly the same thing. Personal anecdotes are not data. Most mental health disorders are inherently self-limiting and will disappear without any treatment, which makes psychiatry look far more effective than it really is. If you're depressed, you're statistically likely to not be depressed in six months time, regardless of whether you seek treatment or not. In these circumstances, it…
Um, yes they are. Are they reliable data? I'm not convinced they're not.
>If you're depressed, you're statistically likely to not be depressed in six months time, regardless of whether you seek treatment or not. In these circumstances, it's easy for a completely ineffective treatment to look like a miracle cure.
Because never in the history of medicine has a treatment for depression had an immediate effect?
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Homeopaths and faith healers say exactly the same thing. Personal anecdotes are not data. Most mental health disorders are inherently self-limiting and will disappear without any treatment, which makes psychiatry look far more effective than it really is. If you're depressed, you're statistically likely to not be depressed in six months time, regardless of whether you seek treatment or not. In these circumstances, it…
> Most mental health disorders are inherently self-limiting and will disappear without any treatment Source?
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#94Without knowing any psychiatric science, this narrative nevertheless seems suspicious. First of all, it is entirely irrelevant whether a discovery was made serendipitously or as a result of incremental science, as long as the effect is clear enough to be repeatedly found. This is not true in well understood fields, such as physics, where the theories are mostly not changed every now and then, but in complex fields, such as medicine and social sciences, the fact that something matches pre-existing theory is no evidence per se. The problem is "bumpy" enough that any theory is likely to flatten every bump that is not directly observed, even if that bump would be very useful in practice. This leads to most discoveries of any value being serendipitous. It also leads to incremental research failing to advance rapidly most of the time.
So the lack of theory and serendipitous discovery are not problems in themselves. The finding that psychiatric drugs would not be better than placebos is indeed a problem. It does raise the question, of how the serendipitous discovery was ever made. Did it arise out of spurious correlations, so that when the drug was first discovered there happened to be a big incidental recovery in most treated patients? Then in later retrials people managed to trigger a sufficient placebo effect to get the whole thing going. It does seem a little unlikely, but one would have to examine how the first trials were performed.
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#95And there's no doubt these medications work in a lot of people (but not all), even though we don't understand how they actually work. Our ancestors did not know what fire was or how it worked, but they did use it because it was useful, the same applies here.
Further development is going to be difficult without a good understanding of how the brain works, though - pharma companies need to focus on finding better ways to probe deeper and more accurately into the brain (and create good simulators for that later on) before developing new drugs.
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
> although that could entirely be due to placebo effect If the drugs had no effect, then why are people (ab)using drugs like Adderall to improve cognition, etc? A big problem with trying to make a science out of the brain, is that it can be very unique to the person. For example, in people that are blind since birth, the pathways in the brain that are normally used for visual processing can get re-purposed over a lif…
Amphetamine is certainly effective and fairly well understood in its clinical effects. There is no doubt about its effectiveness and principal uses and side effects. (Adderall(^tm) is a brand name for amphetamine.) Serotonin reuptake inhibitors used for mood management are just a matter of trying them and seeing if you like the way they feel. It's exactly as scientific as drinking liquor or smoking marijuana to see i…
Yeah, of course we see the effects, but we still don't really know how exactly it works. For example, no one can tell for sure why Dextroamphetamine and levoamphetamine have different effects (the former is a brain stimulant, while the latter affects mostly the body). Adderall is mostly dextroamphetamine, by the way.
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To say that "double-blind prospective trials are nearly non-existent" is very wrong. You need to read each word and think about it. In a prospective trial, subjects are chosen in advance, they aren't drawn from an existing population of people who have already decided to seek psychological help. A "double-blind, prospective trial" would have to sign people up from a cross-section of the population who have no inter…
Prospective study was probably not the correct term, since that's an epidemiological study. "Placebo controlled study" is probably a better term. And a placebo controlled study is the best evidence for a medical treatment - doing epidemiological studies to determine medication effectiveness doesn't seem right. Consider an SSRI study for depression. I want to know if someone who is depressed and takes it does better t…
Yes, and with respect to the drugs we're talking about, subsequent meta-analyses show that the original studies were all biased in favor of their sponsors and all the drugs produce the same results, which argues for a massive placebo effect.
For years, studies were published that appeared to support various drug approaches to mental illness, but those studies have been invalidated by more careful analysis that included (as just one well-known example) unpublished studies that came to conclusions not favorable to the drug companies' outlook.
> Consider an SSRI study for depression.
Yes, let's do that. As things stand right now, studies of drugs that increase serotonin levels show the same effects as those drugs that decrease serotonin levels. This causes open-minded scientists to doubt the efficacy of this entire approach.
Reference: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/09/psych...
Quote: "While S.S.R.I.s surely alter serotonin metabolism, those changes do not explain why the drugs work, nor do they explain why they have proven to be no more effective than placebos in clinical trials."
> I mean, the effects of SSRIs in healthy individuals is an interesting topic, but not relevant if I'm investigating depression treatments.
Such studies -- with the diagnosed depressed -- show no clinically significant result that can distinguish the outcome from the placebo effect. Those are the facts.
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
Homeopaths and faith healers say exactly the same thing. Personal anecdotes are not data. Most mental health disorders are inherently self-limiting and will disappear without any treatment, which makes psychiatry look far more effective than it really is. If you're depressed, you're statistically likely to not be depressed in six months time, regardless of whether you seek treatment or not. In these circumstances, it…
> Most mental health disorders are inherently self-limiting and will disappear without any treatment Source?
If left untreated, a typical major depressive episode may last for about six months, while about 20% of these episodes can last two years or more, with 50% of depressive episodes ending spontaneously.
I can probably find you an article reference if you want. But I have learned this kind of research findings in psychology class.
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#99What evidence does Gary Greenberg provide in his writings that would convince a skeptical onlooker that what he does for his patients is helpful?
Re: The psychiatric drug crisis
#100"Gary Greenberg is a practicing psychotherapist" What evidence does Gary Greenberg provide in his writings that would convince a skeptical onlooker that what he does for his patients is helpful?
The same question could be asked of any psychologist, psychotherapist or psychiatrist, regardless of their publication record. There are no objective, scientific, rigorous evaluation criteria anywhere in the field, which explain why the mental health field has the reputation it does.
No one asked it of Diederik Stapel, and, in spite of his enviable publication record and fame, he turned out the be a total fraud:
Link: http://news.sciencemag.org/people-events/2012/11/final-repor...
Quote: " In their exhaustive final report about the fraud affair that rocked social psychology last year, three investigative panels today collectively find fault with the field itself. They paint an image of a "sloppy" research culture in which some scientists don't understand the essentials of statistics, journal-selected article reviewers encourage researchers to leave unwelcome data out of their papers, and even the most prestigious journals print results that are obviously too good to be true."