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Our Newfound Fear of Risk

schneier.com

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Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#91

Post by fr0sty »

enjo wrote: post #51
graeme wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk to some older folks. My dad describes walking to school with other schoolchildren in Montreal in the 1950s. They'd be alone, without adults, going miles. When playing, they were out dusk to dawn on city streets with no adult supervision.

That proves nothing other than your dad grew up in a particular way. The question the post you were replying to posed was: is this actually a new phenomenon? Or is it simply good ole day syndrome? I suspect it's more the latter.

Do you have any anecdotes (or stronger evidence) to show that the sort of behavior lamented by some in our day existed (or was indeed rampant as your suspicions suggest) N years ago? (where N is anywhere between 20 and 200)?

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#92

Post by Amadou »

anigbrowl wrote: post #81
VLM wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That bit of social engineering led to a huge force multiplier" Its possible to use this technique to predict the next set of attacks: 1) High levels of security theater mean long entrance lines in front of (perceived) high value targets. Therefore instead of attacking the high value target the security theater is protecting, the line of people waiting to enter gets attacked. I get nervous waiting in lines knowing an…

1) High levels of security theater mean long entrance lines in front of (perceived) high value targets. Therefore instead of attacking the high value target the security theater is protecting, the line of people waiting to enter gets attacked. I get nervous waiting in lines knowing any terrorist who isn't an idiot has their sights on me. This isn't going to happen because a bunch of people in line at an airport isn't…

This isn't going to happen because a bunch of people in line at an airport isn't a high-value target.

Tell that to the 35 people who died in a bomb-blast at Russia's biggest airport.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/24/us-russia-blast-ai...

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#93

Post by Florin_Andrei »

smacktoward wrote: post #86
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when the Big Picture is fractured, trust disappears. I see the anti-vax craze as primarily an issue of trust and control. "I don't trust Those People (the doctors)" or along the lines of "I need to control everything, including my vaccine schedule".

Or perhaps, "I can't control nearly anything anymore, so I'm going to get super focused on those few things I still can control, like my child's vaccine schedule." People have spent decades now having their lives turned upside down by forces they're told they can't control: market movements, giant corporations, unresponsive political systems. Rather than pushing back and trying to assert some control over those thing…

I like your version better.

After all, in modern society we delegate an awful lot of stuff. Shoe making to shoe makers, security to police and military, health care to doctors, teaching to teachers, etc. etc. etc. The stuff we delegate is so close to 100% of our lives, the actual difference is lost in the noise.

On top of that, the little that most people do control is meaningless to their own lives. You do customer support at Big Widget Factory Inc. How is that relevant to you?

Probably home schooling is also an offshoot of this phenomenon.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#94

Post by [deleted] »

angersock wrote: post #82
alayne wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to call bullshit unless you can actually cite a reference showing some significant number of 14 year old ship captains in 1913.

If you count fishing and crabbing, and possibly ferrying, I would be unsurprised in the slightest.

[deleted]

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#95

Post by eli_gottlieb »

smacktoward wrote: post #86
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when the Big Picture is fractured, trust disappears. I see the anti-vax craze as primarily an issue of trust and control. "I don't trust Those People (the doctors)" or along the lines of "I need to control everything, including my vaccine schedule".

Or perhaps, "I can't control nearly anything anymore, so I'm going to get super focused on those few things I still can control, like my child's vaccine schedule." People have spent decades now having their lives turned upside down by forces they're told they can't control: market movements, giant corporations, unresponsive political systems. Rather than pushing back and trying to assert some control over those thing…

Your explanation sounds a lot like what certain studies have been showing.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/08/10/jennifer-silva-w...

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#96

Post by eli_gottlieb »

mikeash wrote: post #28
newobj wrote: post #11

Related: at the PARK this weekend, and heard all the following utterances in the span of ten minutes from some parents: "NO RUNNING!" "IT'S DANGEROUS HERE" "YOU'RE GONNA GET HURT" "NO RUNNING!" Talk about instilling fear and creating risk aversion. Sometimes you just have to let a child find out for themselves what's safe and what isn't. What you can get up and dust yourself off from and what you can't. It's hard to…

I was going out for a walk with my daughter the other day and had the following conversation with my wife: Her: Don't let her run on the sidewalk. Me: What? Why? Her: She's not wearing pants, just a dress. Me: ...OK... what exactly is the relationship between these two things? Her: There's nothing covering her knees, she'll hurt herself if she falls on the sidewalk. I couldn't even fathom the connection without havin…

Wait... so nowadays kids aren't supposed to scrape their knees, elbows, arms, hands, and in fact basically everything?

Because that's what we did when I was young.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#97

Post by indefatigable »

acabal wrote: post #80

I think it's become a cultural thing, unfortunately. I've spent the last few years seeing the world, and the difference in attitudes between the people of many other countries and Americans at home is striking. We've become a fear-based culture. I have an anecdote from a month or two ago. My girlfriend--she's German--and I were in Boston's central park, where there's a wading pool for children. The place was extremel…

Yet Germany has institutionalized the same mentality on a more abstract level.

"Global warming might be happening, shut down the energy industry!"

"We can't use nuclear power, someone might get cancer! Keep mining coal and etching solar panels!"

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#98

Post by pavs »

indefatigable wrote: post #97
acabal wrote: post #80

I think it's become a cultural thing, unfortunately. I've spent the last few years seeing the world, and the difference in attitudes between the people of many other countries and Americans at home is striking. We've become a fear-based culture. I have an anecdote from a month or two ago. My girlfriend--she's German--and I were in Boston's central park, where there's a wading pool for children. The place was extremel…

Yet Germany has institutionalized the same mentality on a more abstract level. "Global warming might be happening, shut down the energy industry!" "We can't use nuclear power, someone might get cancer ! Keep mining coal and etching solar panels!"

They are not even remotely the same thing.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#99

Post by SkyMarshal »

mark-r wrote: post #87
SkyMarshal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also wonder if it's related to decreased birth rates in modern times - parents have fewer children than a century or two ago, so losing a single child to an accident of some sort is much more costly to the family, hence the increased risk aversion.

I doubt that losing a child has ever been less than awful no matter how many you have.

Certainly no less emotionally awful, but less economically consequential to the family. Incentives matter.

Re: Our Newfound Fear of Risk

#100

Post by anigbrowl »

Amadou wrote: post #92
anigbrowl wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) High levels of security theater mean long entrance lines in front of (perceived) high value targets. Therefore instead of attacking the high value target the security theater is protecting, the line of people waiting to enter gets attacked. I get nervous waiting in lines knowing any terrorist who isn't an idiot has their sights on me. This isn't going to happen because a bunch of people in line at an airport isn't…

This isn't going to happen because a bunch of people in line at an airport isn't a high-value target. Tell that to the 35 people who died in a bomb-blast at Russia's biggest airport. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/24/us-russia-blast-ai...

OK, unlikely to happen. Did that make any great change in public consciousness? Obviously not.
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