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Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

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Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#91

Post by nitrogen »

jlgreco wrote: post #65
Kylekramer wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I am way off base, but I wasn't under the impression college recruiters were in a position of power when it comes to employment.

I don't see why not; everybody is hiring straight from colleges these days. Who couldn't use another good recruiter? I don't believe for one instant that these are people just desperately trying to feed their starving family. They have options, they choose to stay on.

How many options are there for someone whose primary skill is conversational fluency in and syntactic mastery of Arabic, Russian, and English? We don't see many articles about a commercial shortage of translators.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#92

Post by gojomo »

jlgreco wrote: post #72
gojomo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quitting in disgust is one signal a person can send. But what if that makes the problem worse rather than better, by removing from the agency those people most able to sense and push-back against secret abuses?

So is the hypothesis that these recruiters are continuing to publicly defend and sell the NSA so that behind closed doors they can spend their time trying to rein the NSA back in? I don't buy it, and even if it were true I would not accept that is a proper tradeoff.

They are still trying to recruit a diverse, capable group of patriotic employees, so that the workforce has the full range of skills and opinions for it to do its proper mission, and identify and correct any abuses.

If the armchair-ethicist standard is: "if you have any qualms, you'll quit" – then the type of people doing recruiting, and being recruited, and staying in the agency, all become even more self-selected for total devotion to total surveillance than may already exist. Whatever oversight or shame might remain as an internal check would decay. Whatever hints/leaks we get would dry up even further.

That isn't necessarily any better of a result for us. It doesn't necessarily bring reform/correction any sooner.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#93

Post by lisper »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #38

I have a trick I feel would make a confrontation like this better. Always speak under the assumption that the other person is 'good'. That means not calling them a liar. Instead, ask the questions that you feel would expose the inconsistency. That way they show everyone the point you're trying to make. Also it prevents personal animosity from obscuring the real content you might discover. Furthermore, it allows a 3rd…

+1. It is very important always to keep in mind that the person you are talking to is a human being. And if you're talking to someone at a recruiting fair, they don't make policy. They're just trying to do their jobs so they don't get fired and they can continue to pay the mortgage and put food on the table.

Which is not to say that you should not call them out, just that you should do it respectfully and with compassion for a fellow human who might be in a very difficult position.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#94

Post by embolism »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #83
embolism wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that we don't really know what the organization does. We only have insinuations by Snowden and detractors against the US. We do have evidence that they conduct massive surveillance could be unconstitutional. We do not have evidence that they are abusing this, and more importantly we don't know whether they have been able to save lives. It could be that the people who work there know about positive life-saving…

Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, 16 years old, born to the "wrong father" and killed by a drone strike 2 weeks after his father was murdered. I say murdered because without a trial and imminent threat, that's what it is. And this is not a solitary incident either, just a rather poignant one. Next question? edit: http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/05/24/what-not-specifically-t... In other words, it sounds like some in the Administr…

Murdered by the NSA? Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US?

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#95

Post by charonn0 »

ajuc wrote: post #49
nugget wrote: post #25

As Federal employees, the men and women who work at the NSA swear an oath which dates back to 1884: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and fait…

Even atheists must do the part with God?

No. The Constitution prohibits religious tests as a condition of office, and allows either an oath ("so help me god") or an affirmation[1] to be used.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation_in_law

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#96

Post by nitrogen »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #32
DannyBee wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in general, but i disagree it's "quite a statement". People generally won't do jobs they believe morally or other conflict with their values. So they come up with ways (some may say "delude" themselves) to believe they don't, IE "Just following orders". A good example are prosecutors and defense attorneys. I've met many prosecutors who believe it's okay to put away people for many years even if they personall…

To convince oneself against one's better knowledge that something is right when it's not, because one wants to be able to sleep at night of all things is not amoral? To "just follow orders" isn't amoral? Adolf Eichmann wasn't amoral? What, then, is amorality?

Are you perhaps confusing "amoral" with "immoral"? "Amoral" means without moral consideration ("pragmatic", "calculating"), "immoral" means in violation of moral consideration ("evil", "malicious").

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#97

Post by phaus »

ajuc wrote: post #49
nugget wrote: post #25

As Federal employees, the men and women who work at the NSA swear an oath which dates back to 1884: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and fait…

Even atheists must do the part with God?

When I joined the military, I was given the option to take the pledge without a reference to God. I suspect the same option is given to people in any government organization.

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#98

Post by PavlovsCat »

embolism wrote: post #94
PavlovsCat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, 16 years old, born to the "wrong father" and killed by a drone strike 2 weeks after his father was murdered. I say murdered because without a trial and imminent threat, that's what it is. And this is not a solitary incident either, just a rather poignant one. Next question? edit: http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/05/24/what-not-specifically-t... In other words, it sounds like some in the Administr…

Murdered by the NSA? Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US?

No, murdered by sending out drones in random directions without any targeting info. These things and their programming just pop out of thin air, after all. And then they track just by scent, for weeks even.

Or is this a reason to bring down the entire US?

For someone in the third world who may have little to lose and becomes witness to such senseless slaughter? Maybe.

But then again I'm not quite sure what you're even asking, maybe elaborate. Do you think maybe cutting down on the nazi stuff a liiiittle bit would endanger the US in any meaningful way?

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#99

Post by tzs »

calebhc wrote: post #81
mjn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, it may usually (always?) be omitted. Oddly enough, it didn't require a Supreme Court decision, because the precedent was set with the first such oath: the Judiciary Act of 1789 was the first to specify a legal oath ending with "so help me God", and it at the same time explicitly included an opt-out clause, after which that has been accepted practice. See Sec. 7 here: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/am…

"So help me God" should be omitted since it doesn't even make any coherent sense. Might as well say "So help me snorkleflurp". Edit: The reason I say that phrase doesn't make any sense is because "God" has so many inconsistent, incoherent definitions that it seems nonsensical to request help from it. No idea what "God" even is.

It makes sense. [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_help_me_God

Re: Students Question the NSA at Recruiting Session [audio]

#100

Post by phaus »

md224 wrote: post #45
Kylekramer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the fear of not being able to provide for you or your family takes precedence over privacy concerns for the vast majority of people. There was a news report about how 76% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck last week. I'd argue saying "they could leave" assumes a lot.

This is a valid point, and it underscores the importance of being technologists in a (relatively) strong tech job market... we have the luxury of turning down jobs that we feel are part of detrimental systems. And we should take advantage of this luxury whenever we can. Others aren't so lucky.

Exactly, I spoke about this issue briefly in the comment below. The sad part is, I'm a technologist (although not a developer) and I still struggled.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5967067

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