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When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

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Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#91

Post by chii »

edyoung wrote: post #87
bane wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what hypothesis could support billions of iterations of 'life' evolving into the multicellular form we see today and in our past, and so few evolving technology? Probably just a function of environmental input and enough generations optimizing along directions that matter more for species propagation than a large, energy burning cognitive organ. Keep in mind, it appears that Human level intelligence seems to hav…

I quite like Geoffrey Miller's theory that the human brain is primarily the result of sexual selection rather than natural selection - the hominid equivalent of the peacock's tail.

i find that theory to be unlikely to be true, because its usually not the smart guys but the buff guy that gets the prettiest girls (at least, that is the cultural belief).

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#92

Post by Cookingboy »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #68
Cookingboy wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because they are space separated events does not mean you cannot give assign them chronological order. Can't you just simply refer to a literal universal chronological reference point (i,e Big Bang) and then achieve successful ordering of events? For example: Civilization A achieved space flight x time units (whatever time units, such as Planck time unit) after Big Bang, and civilization B achieved space flight…

>For example: Civilization A achieved space flight x time units (whatever time units, such as Planck time unit) after Big Bang, and civilization B achieved space flight y time units after Big Bang? as long as special relativity is applicable, for space-like separated events A and B, there exist frames of reference such that A is at x time units after Big Bang and B is at y in one frame of reference, and A is at y and…

Yes, but for any such reference frame if you know the distance between the observer and A and B, then after observing both A and B you can still deduct the true chronological order. But I get the parent's point now, for our purpose of observation there is no point figuring out this "true chronological" order anyway since a civilization could have achieved space flight 100,000 years after Big Bang but is at a distance so far away from us that the information may NEVER reach us due to universe expanding.

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#93

Post by anonymous »

sage_joch wrote: post #36
exratione wrote: post #11

Obligatory talking points associated with the Fermi Paradox: - It takes a very short time in comparison to the age of the galaxy for a single self-replicating probe to result in a descendant probe visit to every star. A few million years. This means that you cannot really argue plausibly that all civilizations fail to do this - it would take trivial effort for just one faction within just one advanced civilization to…

Where are the macrostructures? We don't see Dyson spheres or other evident macroscale engineering. This might be a stupid question, but could the Red Square Nebula be considered a candidate? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Square_Nebula

Well, it is probably natural. But if I was tasked with building a nebula-sized art project, that's what I would do.

Though, I'd also put three planes intersecting the conical surface and showing off the three different conical intersections, then inscribe their equations on a planet orbiting the star at the centre.

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#94

Post by andyjohnson0 »

showerst wrote: post #34

Maybe I'm projecting too much human behavior on unknowns, but we've pretty much come to the conclusion that we when run into an uncontacted tribe of humans, we try to stay completely hands off. Perhaps we shouldn't discount the possibility that's a universal evolutionary stage, and that there's just some sort of 'prime directive' type thing keeping any life from contacting us yet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#95

Post by Retric »

chc wrote: post #25
Retric wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intelegence is clearly adaptive when you consider humans have the widest habitat range of any multicellular organism on the planet. When you consider people where thriving in Alaska at the end of the last ice age the idea that climate change or industrial pollution is going to do us in is overblown. A full scale nuclear exchange may doom modern civilization but modern civilization showed up fairly quickly after moder…

We clever primates rose to dominance out of the ashes of 75% of the species on the planet. It seems entirely possible that we never would have achieved this sort of reach if not for the K/T event.

65 million years is a long time even on evolutionary terms. Without K/T you would still have the dinosaur to bird transision because it's an useful nich to be able to fly. mammals evolved with dinosaurs and things may have followed a similar path even without K/T. However, Dinosaurs could have easily followed the same path as humans by filling the same ecological notch of squirls, then spider monkeys thus gaining thumbs to efficently climb with increased body weight. After that increased body weight and brain capacity are useful and suddenly your using tools.

PS: Birds have limited brains because of weight issues but their neurons are just as evolved and capable as primate neurons.

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#96

Post by VLM »

Luc wrote: post #39
VLM wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the semi serious answers is you need a peculiar and somewhat unusual arrangement of land and sea to create a long series of oscillating ice ages every ten thousand years or so (to one sig fig), which is just the right wavelength to very strongly evolve intelligence and civilization. Without that intense adaptation pressure you don't get growth. With enough of it, you get us.

Interesting idea, I'd like to know more. Is 'The Ascent of Mind' by William Calvin what you are referring to? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0595161146/

My apologies, I messed up by not providing things to google for.

There is a hyper specific (perhaps overspecific) theory by a geologist named Matthias Kuhle with many publications from vaguely the 80s thru the 90s. He's probably the most "famous" of the proponents of the whole plate arrangement theory.

The general idea that plate tectonics causes the overall cycle of ice ages doesn't seem very controversial. What the geologist types seem to fight over a lot is Exactly which of numerous causes contributes Exactly what percentage of the positive feedback loop in Exactly which numerical model.

For example Kuhle has a lot of publications about the tibetan plateau being a great place to bootstrap the glacial positive feedback loop. There's others who get all excited about the precise location of the continents affecting the flow of ocean currents pushing warmth up north... The current that pushes warm water to England so its warmer than alaska, the current that used to flow over Panama but can't anymore, the current that used to not exist over the Bearing straits in Alaska but exists now. Then theres the other folks who get all wound up about continents being over a pole (like antarctica) or landlocking a polar ocean (like the other side, the north pole) leading to glaciers. There's something of a minority opinion about "really big continents with mountains in the middle covered in glaciers"... think America's Glacier National Park as visual model, other than its all melting right now.

I don't know anything about the book you linked to, although it's reviews make it look interesting.

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#97

Post by wcfields »

chii wrote: post #91
edyoung wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quite like Geoffrey Miller's theory that the human brain is primarily the result of sexual selection rather than natural selection - the hominid equivalent of the peacock's tail.

i find that theory to be unlikely to be true, because its usually not the smart guys but the buff guy that gets the prettiest girls (at least, that is the cultural belief).

Product of our culture more than anything. We'd all be buff if we barely ate and were outdoors/hunting all the time.

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#98

Post by andrewflnr »

zalzane wrote: post #71
Udo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. why do I need to?

Revelation space is a speculative fiction novel set in the far future during the golden age of space colonization. Spoilers ahead. Throughout the novel there's alien civilizations that use different kinds of way to cloak constructs and settlements. Examples include devices like artificial moons and holographic, multi-spectral holograms that emulate gas giants to hide stuff inside. The one I think andrewflnr may be re…

Mostly, I was thinking of that whole theme in relation to the "incomprehensibly huge threat" thing Udo mentioned. If you're talking about Shrouders, I don't remember that method of using gravitational waves being mentioned. Did you hear that somewhere else?

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#99

Post by croikle »

showerst wrote: post #34

Maybe I'm projecting too much human behavior on unknowns, but we've pretty much come to the conclusion that we when run into an uncontacted tribe of humans, we try to stay completely hands off. Perhaps we shouldn't discount the possibility that's a universal evolutionary stage, and that there's just some sort of 'prime directive' type thing keeping any life from contacting us yet?

Or perhaps the best move is to hide. With such a large range of time, almost any species you encounter will be either incredibly primitive (thus not so interesting, and not receptive to your signals), or tremendously advanced, and a serious existential threat. Faced with this choice, it's quite rational to avoid looking for the neighbors.

This doesn't really apply to the self-replication wave, but it is an argument against active SETI.

Re: When Are the Intelligent Aliens?

#100

Post by derekp7 »

killerswan wrote: post #84
derekp7 wrote: post #27

Nevermind life outside our planet, why isn't there other non-related life on our planet (independant biogenesis)? From what I gather, evidence at the molecular level (things like molecular chirality in various cellular structures) point to all life being related.

Probably: our relatives ate them all! There's basically no corner of our planet, from the hottest volcanic ocean vent to the coldest ice at the poles, to the highest clouds in the air, where our relatives don't live. Of course, it has taken us about 1/4 the lifetime of the entire universe to get this far, so YMMV. :D

The reason I don't buy that line of reasoning is: The Lions eat the Gazelles, yet there are still Gazelles out there. Also, Gazelles and Zebras share the same land, and one hasn't starved the other of resources. And I don't think that is is just because they came from the same single-celled ancestors that make them able to share the same space. In the same way, I would expect other independent biogenesis lifeforms to still be represented (or new ones popping up periodically).
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