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NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

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Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#91

Post by sigil »

just2n wrote: post #29
agildehaus wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He referenced the bill shortly thereafter: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S05725&term=2013 http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term...

English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

> Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

You might be interested in this experiment:

https://github.com/divegeek/uscode

(Federal code, not state.)

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#92

Post by jusben1369 »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #89
jusben1369 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short answer: Think "the Apple Store" of car dealerships. Long answer: I don't think the mass market is in Tesla's future anymore. They're too late. There are too many competitive new entry level entrants from Honda, Nissan, Ford etc. I don't think Musk cares. He strikes me as a guy with a mission - to get us off fossil fuels - and he's doing that. I think his deal to supply the motor industry shows you where Tesla w…

How is the Apple Store an analogy to Tesla establishing dealerships? As far as I know, Apple Stores are owned and operated directly by Apple and are thus direct sales, while dealerships are third-parties/franchisees that buy from the manufacturer and re-sell to the consumer.

You're super literal. Imagine completely re-designing the car dealership experience so that it becomes a positive to the buying experience vs a negative. Secondly, who said the dealership has to be a franchise? Lastly, franchise's (even if you did that) have to follow some pretty strict guidelines. So you could drive the process hard.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#93

Post by warfangle »

jarrett wrote: post #63
just2n wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

> Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet? Properly drafted English-language laws do read as code. It's like how you can describe formal logic in English: "All Americans wear hats. I am an American. Therefore I wear a hat." I take it you're arguing for something like Lojban, though. I see two problems there. First, it's not the (de facto) national language, which infringes on one's fundamental right to read the la…

A language like Prolog might, though. Through necessity of defining terms.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#94

Post by pygy_ »

Symmetry wrote: post #78
pygy_ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You restated his point, less dramatically.

Not at all. This isn't "corporations" but a coalition of small businesses.

s/corporations/commercial interests/

It is only a matter of scale (this is a state senate, after all).

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#95

Post by makomk »

shmerl wrote: post #74
koenigdavidmj wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 50% of the human race is middlemen, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated

Middlemen don't necessarily need laws to protect their position on the market. If they offer some value with their services - people will use them. If they need laws, it can be that their services aren't necessary at all for the consumer.

They do offer some value to both consumers and manufacturers - they allow manufacturers to sell cars without the capital costs of setting up dealers everywhere themselves. The trouble is that, without legal protection, you basically have to be a sucker in order to set one up; if the manufacturers can set up dealers themselves, they can just cherry-pick the most profitable locations and drive their independent dealers there out of business. This actually happened with Games Workshop, whose resellers didn't have any legal protection - as soon as their stuff took off, they set up stores everywhere and drove the hobby stores who took on all the risk of marketing their products out of business. (To the detriment of customers I might add.)

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#97

Post by sigil »

"My dear colleagues, every day great quantities of wood come into Paris, and draw out of it large sums of money. If this goes on, we shall all be ruined in three years, and what will become of the poor people? [Bravo.] Let us prohibit foreign wood. I am not speaking for myself, for you could not make a tooth-pick out of all the wood I own. I am, therefore, perfectly disinterested. [Good, good.] But here is Pierre, who has a park, and he will keep our fellow-citizens from freezing. They will no longer be in a state of dependence on the charcoal dealers of the Yonne. Have you ever thought of the risk we run of dying of cold, if the proprietors of these foreign forests should take it into their heads not to bring any more wood to Paris? Let us, therefore, prohibit wood. By this means we shall stop the drain of specie, we shall start the wood-chopping business, and open to our workmen a new source of labor and wages. [Applause.]"

-- Bastiat, Sophisms of the Protectionists

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20161/20161-h/20161-h.htm

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#98

Post by joezydeco »

shmerl wrote: post #72
jusben1369 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you find a law that's been on the books for a long time "bizarre" show some restraint. There is likely a very good set of reasons for its existence. Go and research those and see if you agree with them or not. But these "I'm totally bewildered how could this possibly be?!" comments add very little.

If instead of brushing it off you could explain what those reasons are, it could be more helpful. Thus my question. If you don't know them and assume they exist - I'm not convinced. There are bad laws which are pushed in by various lobbies (like DMCA). The fact that they can exist long is not a proof of the sanity of such laws.

This Planet Money podcast:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/02/12/171814201/episode-...

and this paper (PDF)

http://faculty.som.yale.edu/FionaScottMorton/documents/State...

Should be a useful primer. It explains how the dealership/franchise structure came to be, and why automakers prefer this model today.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#99

Post by darkarmani »

dangrossman wrote: post #77
darkarmani wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't this all be enforced using contract law? I don't see McDonalds having burger dealerships codified into law, but rather franchise contracts that let them sell billions of pounds of beef, chicken, and potatoes through their "dealers."

McDonalds doesn't need any arrangement like that because nobody's interested in mail-ordering cheeseburgers from them, and if HQ wanted to put them in supermarkets and sell direct-to-consumer, it wouldn't affect the franchises anyway -- frozen burgers are not a substitute good for drive-thru fast-food meals. Cars are different. If the manufacturers sell direct-to-consumer, then they can always undercut dealerships (n…

> McDonalds doesn't need any arrangement like that because nobody's interested in mail-ordering cheeseburgers from them

Mail-order isn't the issue. McDonalds can own their own restaurants right now if they want to, instead of franchising. This is similar to how Tesla wants to operate.

> If the manufacturers sell direct-to-consumer, then they can always undercut dealerships...there will be no profit in buying new vehicles to resell on a lot. There either won't be "new car" dealerships anymore, or they'll essentially become showrooms earning a small commission referring orders to the manufacturer.

Good? If they can't add value and only exist because a law creates a cartel, then good riddance. If they actually add value, I'm sure we'll see that represented by people choosing to buy through dealers anyway.

> The dealers have no contracts prohibiting manufacturers from selling direct-to-consumer, and they have no leverage to get them to sign such contracts.

If they have no leverage, why is it acceptable to force them via the law? They could draw up fair contracts where both parties are happy and if they aren't they can walk away from it. It sounds like you are saying it's unfair because the dealers don't have to worry about the value they add to the manufacturers. You readily admit that the current arrangement is inefficient.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#100

Post by jlgreco »

jumanji89 wrote: post #50
leetrout wrote: post #6

Because the government is completely ran by corporations and Musk isn't in "the club" (yet). Gone are the days where the consumer is uneducated and the supplier doesn't have a way to easily and effectively communicate with customers everywhere from anywhere. There's a pretty good doc on Netflix, "Park Avenue: Money, Power and the American Dream", which covers some of the financial backing of congress and how it affec…

Are you telling me Space X, Tesla, and Solar City haven't had any special deals with the government? This is the funniest thing I've read on HN.

Special deals? Can you point some out? All that I am aware of are programs that were offered to many companies. SpaceX's relationship with NASA is not special, other companies are/have been in the COTS program. The tax benefits/rebates/carbon trading shit that Tesla benefits from is available to any car company that wishes to participate. My understanding is that Solar City is in more or less the same situation as Tesla, though they are not really "Elon's" company.
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